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SwedeLundin77

Andreas Athanasiou Officially Signed 2 yrs. $3M AAV

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2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I know who Z is, and I know you're referring to Zadina as well, but you list Z, ZZ and Z2. Who is Who?

AA i s better than a deserves to be in top 6 over Nyquist. 

Nyquist-Nielsen-Vanek is a great line in the 3rd slot.

Z = Zetterberg, Z2 = Zadina, ZZ = Bertuzzi

https://www.nhl.com/player/andreas-athanasiou-8476960

https://www.nhl.com/player/gustav-nyquist-8474679?season=20172018

AA who is a purely offensive player averaged .46 point per game and was a -15 +/-

Nyquist (who doesn't cheat like AA) averaged .48 points per game and was a -2 +/- He also has a better shooting % than AA despite having a lot fewer breakaways.

So between the 2, I would choose to keep Nyquist over AA, hands down. He is just a better player.

2 hours ago, e_prime said:

Already taken?    Okay.  Fine.  BBVD suck anyway.  

I'm a Voodoo Glow Skull aka Skeletor.  (Certainly more apropos than "Biggie Large" given my actual stature.)

8+43=51.  MIND BLOWN.

giphy.gif

I took math in college.

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1 hour ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

 

I took math in college.

Ooooooh.   Look at youuuu.  Fan-cy coll-ege boi.  :lol:

I'm seriously kidding.  Not trying to be a dick... however naturally that might come for me.

Edited by e_prime

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23 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Ya, again, only dominated 1 four game series.

First two full years of Franzen...36 points. 22 goals.

First two full years of AA...62 points. 34 goals. Give AA linemates like prime Z and Dats, we will see if he can score 30 goals...which Franzen has only done once btw.

Anyway, nobody said he was Franzen, but he can take over a game with his explosiveness.

Btw, when you're wining 5-0 and barely hold on to win 5-4, that 5th goal is hardly a game winning goal.

That was his best series sure, but he dominated the playoffs 3 years in a row as the stats show.

So AA can take over games with his explosiveness? Really? Why hasn't he done so?  16 goals and 33 pts last year... You know who else got 16 goals and 33 pts last year? Frans Nielsen. And no, I wouldn't call him someone who takes over games either.

23 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

I would take a healthy Franzen over a healthy AA 7 days a week and twice on Tuesday. AA stands for Apolo Anton (Ohno). Just because he's fast doesn't make him a good hockey player.

Thought ppl would have learned that fact after Darren Helm. Breakaways are great and all, but a lot of the rest of his game is lacking. Which is not surprising, we've been warned about it since his junior days.

19 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

               2007, 2008 & 2009 Franzens playoff performance was amazing, he scored 31 goals in 51 games  He was one of the best playoff performers of any team in any recent years...However in his career he had 187 goals in 602 games, so riddle me why you guys are so focused of his 3 good playoff appearances?  AA has one playoff under his belt and it was 1 goal in 5 games played and I hope he gets to play in more soooooon.

                AA has most certainly taken over at certain parts of games, his speed and skill lead to many tie ups as well as games winners.  He could be quiet all game then score the tying goal at the end of the period and the game winner 6 seconds into overtime.  

                I not once compared anything to franzens playoff performances because-as his stats point out were pretty fluky to how he performed overall.  My point was comparing skillsets-Franzens was great hands, great shot and big size as AA doesn't have great size but makes up for it with his great speed, and also has great hands and a great shot.  This was my only comparison and I believe it  is more important during our transition then the likes of Helm, Abby or Glendening.   That was my point.

 

187 goals in 602 games is REALLY good for an NHL player.

AA hasn't had much of a chance to see the playoffs yet, and maybe he can kick it on in the playoffs like Franzen could in his heyday, but I seriously doubt it. The only other guy I can remember who could turn it up in the playoffs like Franzen could was Danny Briere. It's what made Briere and Franzen rare/special players.

Athanasiou literally had only 2 game-winning goals last season. If you have stats on game-tying goals please share.

I can't think of many offensively minded players more different than AA and Franzen... AA can dangle you out of your pants, Franzen couldn't dangle at all. Franzen would actually win board battles, AA loses them left and right. AA is one of the fastest skaters in the league, Franzen was an average to below average skater at best. Franzen would play in front of the net, AA hardly does. Franzen was very underrated defensively, AA cheats on defense all the time.

Literally the only thing they have in common is being Red Wings and having a decent wrister. Otherwise they're completely different players.

19 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

So Datsyuk isn't as good as Franzen?      

Quote

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."

Until AA gets a chance at the playoffs lets keep it real.  In skill level they are 100% comparable, both skilled players one difference being size which the other makes up in speed.  AA and Franzen are waaaaayyyyyy more comparable to Dats and Mule.   That's a can a worms I don't even want to have trolled into

 

12 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't see how Athanasiou and Franzen are remotely similar in their style of game. Athanasiou is one of the fastest skaters in the league, has great hands, and a decent shot. Franzen was an average skater, decent hands for a big man, great net-front guy, and a lethal shot. Not very similar at all. In saying that, I don't think it's really fair to compare them at all. Franzen was streaky (most goal scorers are) but when he was on, he was one of, if not the most dominant players in the entire league. Athanasiou can break a game open with his lethal speed, but he hasn't yet been able to dominate a single game, let alone a stretch of games.

I believe AA does have the potential to get there. He has all the skill in the world, it's just a matter of putting it all together, and putting in the work to get there. People seem to forget that he's just 23 years old (24 to start this season). Franzen didn't play his first NHL game until he was 26! Let's see where Athanasiou is in a couple years once he matures a little as a player, and (hopefully) develops more of a two-way game.

Yes, and I don't see why this is hard to understand.

9 hours ago, Dabura said:

I want to see AA win more board battles and get better at holding the puck under pressure. Way too easily separated from the puck.

I'd also like to see him take a cue from Larkin and really work on his playmaking. Less "I'ma cheat high and you hit me with a stretch pass," more forechecking and cycling and give-and-going. Do something other than trying to get a breakaway or trying to deke around a defender in a one-on-one situation (never works for him).

I do think there's something to the argument that playing him on the wing encourages laziness and bad habits in his game. I'd be down with giving him a long look at center. It'd have to be on the fourth line, though.

Everyone is so enthralled by his break-aways, we forget that the rest of his game is severely lacking, and he certainly isn't putting up the offensive numbers to prop up those shortcomings. This notion that he is somehow a game-changer/put-the-team-on-my-back kinda player is laughable.

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8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

...

Everyone is so enthralled by his break-aways, we forget that the rest of his game is severely lacking, and he certainly isn't putting up the offensive numbers to prop up those shortcomings. This notion that he is somehow a game-changer/put-the-team-on-my-back kinda player is laughable.

For a guy calling someone else out for strawman-ing, you're reading an awful lot into the (para)phrase 'AA can turn it on and steal a game'. 

Funny that all this recent, and mostly unwarranted, negativity toward AA has become a comparison to Franzen of all people. 

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2 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Literally the only thing they have in common is being Red Wings and having a decent wrister. Otherwise they're completely different players.

Yes, and I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Everyone is so enthralled by his break-aways, we forget that the rest of his game is severely lacking, and he certainly isn't putting up the offensive numbers to prop up those shortcomings. This notion that he is somehow a game-changer/put-the-team-on-my-back kinda player is laughable.

 

I agree with what you're saying, and I obviously didn't explain my thoughts correctly.  I didn't mean to imply their game was alike at all, they play different styles completely and have different pros and cons to their game.  What I was comparing was that in my mind AA 100% has the ability to become that secondary scoring force like Franzen was.  Franzen said many times he liked that with Detroit he wasn't the main guy and didn't have that pressure to be the guy (off point but AA looks like the kind of guy that would love to be the guy) behind Zetterberg & Datsyuk making his job a little easier in his mind.  As for AA I think he can be the guy behind Larkin, Mantha and hopefully Zadina putting up quality numbers and at times providing us with a great spectacle along the way.  His ceiling is higher then most, but how hard is he willing to work for it?  Ive always liked his game and am happy hes sticking around.  I just hope he puts the work in to reach the plateau some can see in him

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2 hours ago, Buppy said:

For a guy calling someone else out for strawman-ing, you're reading an awful lot into the (para)phrase 'AA can turn it on and steal a game'

Funny that all this recent, and mostly unwarranted, negativity toward AA has become a comparison to Franzen of all people. 

I stand by that, but I definitely didn't explain my thought of why enough.  It was an under thought out late night brain fart.  I do still stand by it though.

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43 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Makes me wonder what Larkin, and Mantha will get $$$ ?

I can see Larkin sign on until he's UFA eligible ($5 to $5.5 million per season), and Mantha anywhere from 2 to 5 years at a bit less than Larkin.

It's gonna be an interesting summer for sure...

I'll quote myself because I think this will be similar to what happens:

Quote

we have $6.1M left, add in Franzen's $3.9M and that is $10M

Ras - $894k

Zadina  $925k

Mantha $4M

Larkin $5M

Frk minus $1M (waived)

Witkowski will be both the 14th FWD and 7th D. Barring any new (or old) injuries or trades.

If everyone is healthy, and there are no trades I feel the roster would look like this:

Zetterberg, Larkin, Nyquist, AA, Mantha, Vanek, Nielsen, Abby, Helm, Glenny, Bertuzzi, Zadina, Rasmussen. (Witko as #14)

Dekeyser, Green, Jensen, Ericsson, Kronwall, Daley (Witko as #7)

There is just no room for a 23rd player under the cap. Unless Larkin and Mantha surprise us and take a combined $1M to $1.5M less, which would allow Frk to stay.

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11 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

AA is the new whipping boy.  Gets all the tough minutes and s*** linemates, yet people expect 60 pts a year.  If he centers Vanek and Zadina this year,  he will rip it up.

Maybe we wait until AA shows some real work ethic before having him play center in this league?

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14 hours ago, Buppy said:

For a guy calling someone else out for strawman-ing, you're reading an awful lot into the (para)phrase 'AA can turn it on and steal a game'. 

Funny that all this recent, and mostly unwarranted, negativity toward AA has become a comparison to Franzen of all people. 

Lol sure

12 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

 

I agree with what you're saying, and I obviously didn't explain my thoughts correctly.  I didn't mean to imply their game was alike at all, they play different styles completely and have different pros and cons to their game.  What I was comparing was that in my mind AA 100% has the ability to become that secondary scoring force like Franzen was.  Franzen said many times he liked that with Detroit he wasn't the main guy and didn't have that pressure to be the guy (off point but AA looks like the kind of guy that would love to be the guy) behind Zetterberg & Datsyuk making his job a little easier in his mind.  As for AA I think he can be the guy behind Larkin, Mantha and hopefully Zadina putting up quality numbers and at times providing us with a great spectacle along the way.  His ceiling is higher then most, but how hard is he willing to work for it?  Ive always liked his game and am happy hes sticking around.  I just hope he puts the work in to reach the plateau some can see in him

 

12 hours ago, 13dangledangle said:

I stand by that, but I definitely didn't explain my thought of why enough.  It was an under thought out late night brain fart.  I do still stand by it though.

 

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6 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Double Edge.   Gotta play him to motivate him.  Can't tell him to p.k. 5 minutes a night and play with Glendening and Booth for his other 10 minutes while expecting a point a game production level.  Give him 5 mins on the pk, 5 minutes on the pp, and 10 minutes with Vanek and Larkin, I guarantee you he gets between 60-80 pts.

He'll get top minutes when he gives top effort. If it needs to be handed to him to be motivated, then trade him. That simple. 

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6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Lol sure

 

 

Im not really sure why you quoted both of those posts, they say the same thing in both.  That I didn't explain myself enough BUT I still believe in my first thought that AA can be a game changer.  You're very much taking my words and conjuring up your own little fun park with them, hopefully its been fun for you. 

Edited by 13dangledangle

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Good deal. I think AA has a lot of talent. Just needs to mature more and not be a little *****. 

21 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Z = Zetterberg, Z2 = Zadina, ZZ = Bertuzzi

https://www.nhl.com/player/andreas-athanasiou-8476960

https://www.nhl.com/player/gustav-nyquist-8474679?season=20172018

AA who is a purely offensive player averaged .46 point per game and was a -15 +/-

Nyquist (who doesn't cheat like AA) averaged .48 points per game and was a -2 +/- He also has a better shooting % than AA despite having a lot fewer breakaways.

So between the 2, I would choose to keep Nyquist over AA, hands down. He is just a better player.

Nyquist played with Zetterberg. Weak argument. 

 

Edited by kickazz

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1 hour ago, LeftWinger said:

So, if he's not traded, I don't want to see any of these haters cheering for him when he lights the lamp. You've made your beds.

AA will score zero goals this season and will finish -497. Bank on it. He is quite possibly the worst player in the history of the National Hockey League.

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1 hour ago, kickazz said:

Good deal. I think AA has a lot of talent. Just needs to mature more and not be a little *****. 

Nyquist played with Zetterberg. Weak argument. 

 

1. Nyquist also didn't hang around center ice all game waiting for outlet passes from teammates.

2. He actually plays a more rounded game which would actually DECREASE his point totals.

3. Nyquist still has a higher shooting percentage than AA with fewer breakaway chances.

None of these have anything to do with linemates. They are player to player comparisons. Nice try tho.

 

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

So, if he's not traded, I don't want to see any of these haters cheering for him when he lights the lamp. You've made your beds.

Just because I think you and others overrate him doesn't mean he's not a member of this team. I am sure you NEVER cheered when Franzen scored am I right?

18 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

AA is the new whipping boy.  Gets all the tough minutes and s*** linemates, yet people expect 60 pts a year.  If he centers Vanek and Zadina this year,  he will rip it up.

If he centers Zadina and Vanek, their point totals will go down because they have to play more defense since AA doesn't.

4 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Double Edge.   Gotta play him to motivate him.  Can't tell him to p.k. 5 minutes a night and play with Glendening and Booth for his other 10 minutes while expecting a point a game production level.  Give him 5 mins on the pk, 5 minutes on the pp, and 10 minutes with Vanek and Larkin, I guarantee you he gets between 60-80 pts.

Holland just doubled his salary. I think he has all the motivation he needs.

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17 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

1. Nyquist also didn't hang around center ice all game waiting for outlet passes from teammates.

2. He actually plays a more rounded game which would actually DECREASE his point totals.

3. Nyquist still has a higher shooting percentage than AA with fewer breakaway chances.

None of these have anything to do with linemates. They are player to player comparisons. Nice try tho.

 

Nice try? I haven't even started trying.

What statistical evidence do you have to prove 1 and 2 actually makes a difference? 

You're talking out of your ass. 

AA actually has more defensive zone starts than Nyquist does. 47.1 vs 44.2 %. His even strength line production comes from lesser teammates. Nyquist had the luxury of playing with Mantha (our best goal scorer) and Zetterberg (our best play maker). 

As far as Corsi/Fenwick, they're about the same. Takeaway and blocked shots rate favor AA, but still about the same. AA kills penalties and Nyquist doesn't. So I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that Nyquist is more rounded? 

In fact, because AA gets less time on PP and Even strength (since he has to spend some time on PK), I'd argue that Nyquist is actually is in a more favorable position (add in the fact that he got to play with our best goal scorer and playmaker). 

And lol at #3. AA had 9.4 shooting % while Nyquist had 9.9. Wow what a big difference. 

AA is younger, still has a lot to learn; cheaper. 

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/players/gustav-nyquist

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/players/andreas-athanasiou

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/a/athanan01.html

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/n/nyquigu01.html

Edited by kickazz

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24 minutes ago, kickazz said:

Nice try? I haven't even started trying.

What statistical evidence do you have to prove 1 and 2 actually makes a difference? 

You're talking out of your ass. 

AA actually has more defensive zone starts than Nyquist does. 47.1 vs 44.2 %. His even strength line production comes from lesser teammates. Nyquist had the luxury of playing with Mantha (our best goal scorer) and Zetterberg (our best play maker). 

As far as Corsi/Fenwick, they're about the same. Takeaway and blocked shots rate favor AA, but still about the same. AA kills penalties and Nyquist doesn't. So I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that Nyquist is more rounded? 

In fact, because AA gets less time on PP and Even strength (since he has to spend some time on PK), I'd argue that Nyquist is actually is in a more favorable position (add in the fact that he got to play with our best goal scorer and playmaker). 

And lol at #3. AA had 9.4 shooting % while Nyquist had 9.9. Wow what a big difference. 

AA is younger, still has a lot to learn; cheaper. 

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/players/gustav-nyquist

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/players/andreas-athanasiou

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/a/athanan01.html

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/n/nyquigu01.html

You're right. They do nothing to benefit AA, which is exactly why he does them. And do I really have to post statistical evidence to support what I thought was common knowledge? The more a player focuses on playing a 2 way game, or more specifically defense, it lowers his offensive numbers.

Which allows him to cheat more by floating around the blue line while his linemates actually play defense. Can't score on a breakaway in your own zone. Referencing the websites you listed, Nyquist played 75% of the time at even strength with Z, Bertuzzi, and Mantha. AA played 75% of even strength time with Mantha, Larkin, Bertuzzi, and Tatar. What a bunch of Bums there.

Yeah, Because he's fast. Not anything too out of the ordinary here.

AA cheats on D and floats. Not to say he can't change that and become a more rounded player, but up until now he seems unwilling or unable to learn how.

1. because he's not in Blashill's doghouse all of the time.

2. Maybe it's because he's a better player?

3. Doesn't invalidate anything I said.

It is when you consider that a player is 113% more likely to score on a breakaway chance. Shouldn't AA's shooting percentage be higher than Nyquist's then?

https://www.arcticicehockey.com/2011/3/21/2062995/2-on-1s-breakaways-and-shootouts

None of which makes him better than Nyquist.

My point is that you can't discredit Nyquist because of who his linemates are. Ovechkin scores like 50 goals a season. I could argue he looks better than Nyquist because he has better linemates, or he gets a lot more PP opportunities, when in fact, his numbers are better because he is just a better player. Is that a "weak argument" ?

Nyquist is a better hockey player than AA IMO. You can disagree if you want. That's fine. Maybe AA improves and surpasses him (I doubt it), who knows? But saying that better numbers is a "weak argument" because of who someone plays with is silly IMO.

Do we take away the Rocket Richard Trophy from the player who scores the most goals because his center was better than the other guys or because he had more PP's? No. Individual numbers matter, regardless of linemates.

You say that Nyquist was protected by Z? OK. AA played mostly with Larkin and lesser with Nielsen. Pretty good 2 way centers wouldn't you say? So Nyquist benefitted from Z but AA didn't benefit at all from Larkin? Can't have it both ways.

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3 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

You're right. They do nothing to benefit AA, which is exactly why he does them. And do I really have to post statistical evidence to support what I thought was common knowledge? The more a player focuses on playing a 2 way game, or more specifically defense, it lowers his offensive numbers.

Which allows him to cheat more by floating around the blue line while his linemates actually play defense. Can't score on a breakaway in your own zone. Referencing the websites you listed, Nyquist played 75% of the time at even strength with Z, Bertuzzi, and Mantha. AA played 75% of even strength time with Mantha, Larkin, Bertuzzi, and Tatar. What a bunch of Bums there.

Yeah, Because he's fast. Not anything too out of the ordinary here.

AA cheats on D and floats. Not to say he can't change that and become a more rounded player, but up until now he seems unwilling or unable to learn how.

1. because he's not in Blashill's doghouse all of the time.

2. Maybe it's because he's a better player?

3. Doesn't invalidate anything I said.

It is when you consider that a player is 113% more likely to score on a breakaway chance. Shouldn't AA's shooting percentage be higher than Nyquist's then?

https://www.arcticicehockey.com/2011/3/21/2062995/2-on-1s-breakaways-and-shootouts

None of which makes him better than Nyquist.

My point is that you can't discredit Nyquist because of who his linemates are. Ovechkin scores like 50 goals a season. I could argue he looks better than Nyquist because he has better linemates, or he gets a lot more PP opportunities, when in fact, his numbers are better because he is just a better player. Is that a "weak argument" ?

Nyquist is a better hockey player than AA IMO. You can disagree if you want. That's fine. Maybe AA improves and surpasses him (I doubt it), who knows? But saying that better numbers is a "weak argument" because of who someone plays with is silly IMO.

Do we take away the Rocket Richard Trophy from the player who scores the most goals because his center was better than the other guys or because he had more PP's? No. Individual numbers matter, regardless of linemates.

You say that Nyquist was protected by Z? OK. AA played mostly with Larkin and lesser with Nielsen. Pretty good 2 way centers wouldn't you say? So Nyquist benefitted from Z but AA didn't benefit at all from Larkin? Can't have it both ways.

Larkin isn't as smart as Zetterberg quite yet. 

And you're still talking out your ass with no evidence other than "because I said so" and "eyeball tests".

I'll play your game, here's eyeball proof. 200 foot player visual example. Clearly has got the skill and has done it. 

Also AA is a penalty killer. Nyquist isn't. You dodged a big point I made and just said it's because he's fast lol. Pure speculation and again; you haven't given any proof.

Another example of 200 foot game. AA is the deepest forward on the backcheck before the turn over while he makes the play.

Example of him going against the boards and helping creating a turn over. So. Much. Floating.

People like to criticize AA a little too much. I agree that he's had his fair share of issues and on occasion have even spoken against him, but let's not discredit him this much. He's about as good as Nyquist is and has a higher skill set and likely will end up being a top 6 winger. And yes his speed is his biggest advantage and that's good enough in the present day NHL to make it far. Welcome to 2018 NHL. Speed kills. 

Edited by kickazz

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3 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Cool. You have to go back in time then, and uncheer for the Wings when they won in 08 with you boy Johan laying waste to the Western Conference.

9 goals in 4 games and 4 goals in the rest of the entire playoffs. He dominated one team, invisible for the rest.

But hey, he threw down Kanes mouthpiece.

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