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Member Since 31 May 2011
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#2548271 11/9 GDT - Tampa Bay 4 at Detroit 3 (SO) - 6:00 PM EST

Posted by kipwinger on 09 November 2014 - 07:24 PM

got to love the bandwagon  fans


Did you expect a Florida team to have lifelong, homegrown, die hard fans of a sport played on ice?  None of ice, hockey, or hockey fans naturally occurs in Florida.  Bandwagon fans in Florida is a little more tolerable than they are in say...Chicago?

#2548264 11/9 GDT - Tampa Bay 4 at Detroit 3 (SO) - 6:00 PM EST

Posted by kipwinger on 09 November 2014 - 07:21 PM

I wonder how long before we can put this "the only way to win in today's game is to draft and develop" argument to bed.  Jason Garrison, Ben Bishop, Brendan Morrow, Anton Stralman, Matt Carle, Brian Boyle, Ryan Callahan, and Valtteri Filppula are all pretty significant contributors to this team and were drafted and developed elsewhere.  Same is true of both teams in the Stanley Cup last year as well.  Free agency and trades can add significantly to your team's success.

#2547829 Mantha getting closer.

Posted by kipwinger on 07 November 2014 - 07:13 PM

That's the reason I think they'll keep him, but if they package him together for a top four d, I don't think it has to be that much of a slam dunk.

We've had skilled bigger bodies before and they always turned out to be grinders like McCarty, maltby, and lapointe.


Depends on who the top four d-man is.  But I get your point.  It's really risky trading a guy like Jurco at this age because you won't get a great return (unless packaged) and you don't know how he'll turn out.  Reminds me a bit like the situation where the Islanders traded Nino Neiderreiter.  Got very little and he's turning out to be a real good forward. 

#2547819 Mantha getting closer.

Posted by kipwinger on 07 November 2014 - 06:51 PM

I can see them moving Jurco if Mantha comes in and is the real deal


I mean, I don't think anybody other than Mantha (and probably Mrazek) is untouchable.  But why trade Jurco?  They've been saying for the last 3 or 4 drafts that they wanted to "get bigger and not lose skill".  Now that they've finally got that coming to fruition, I don't see them moving it unless it's a slam dunk.  I'd imagine (out of the prospects) any two of Backman, Jensen, or Ouellet plus Pulkkinen would be the ones to go first in a trade.  They've got value.  They can't all fit into the lineup along with everybody else.  And they're on the smaller end of the prospects.  Then again, a lot of that depends on who the coach is going to be next year because I get the feeling Babs and Blash wouldn't necessarily keep the same guys around given the choice.

Unfortunately so can i, but I think it'll be a mistake.
Jurco ceiling is really high, and I'd love to keep him but if given the choice right now I'd take mantha.

But I still thinkthe jerk will be an awesome top six player in the future.


He's not going anywher unless the return is a slam dunk.  Count on it.  Why draft big if you're just going to trade the big players and keep the little ones?

#2547811 Mantha getting closer.

Posted by kipwinger on 07 November 2014 - 06:22 PM

A lot of pressure for both guys. They are in direct competition with pretty much the same skill set. Should be fun



I think they're in direct competition.  But I don't think they've got the same skill set.  Jurco was really drafted for his stick handling, speed, and play in tight around the net.  Mantha's a pure sniper.  Really the only thing similar about them is their size and speed.  With regard to skill sets, Mantha is actually more like Pulkkinen.  Only way bigger and faster, obviously. 


The competition will be good for them, but I don't know about pressure.  They're both going to be part of the team for a long time to come.  The guy who should feel pressure is Pulkkinen.  The NHL is not a small guy's game anymore, and despite the fact that he's scoring goals he hasn't been given a look at the NHL level, nor has he really been spoken of too highly by Blashill or Babs.  The refrain seems to be "can score goals, but the rest of his game isn't developed".  He needs to carve out a spot for himself. 

#2547809 Mantha getting closer.

Posted by kipwinger on 07 November 2014 - 06:11 PM

I'd like to see him and Jurco in Grand Rapids at the same time.  You've got to believe the competition would be good for Jurco while at the same time giving them both a chance to shine.  I imagine Jurco won't want to be outdone by a first year guy. 

#2547614 GDT 11/5/14--Wings @ Rangers

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 01:13 PM


I didn't say the are exactly +/- I said they nothing more than, e.g. are as useless as this stat. For example the afore mentioned St.Louis goal : Kindl changes in the worst possible moment, is therefore off the ice when St.Louis scores. Guess who is the lucky guy on the ice desperately trying to catch the guy Kindl just abandoned ? Right, its Smith who, following your stats, is fully responsible for the goal while Kindl is not. If you can break down every goal and show me that and why Smith f***ed up on any of these I'll be the first who's with you. But your stats are just ridiculously flawed. Just because someone is on the ice doesn't mean he is responsible for the goal against.

And while Smith is the better player he also has to face the tougher opposition while Kindl plays heavily sheltered minutes.



First of all, it's not on me to go to ridiculous lengths to prove anything.  You want to show why all four goals scored while Smith was on the ice (over the last three games) aren't his fault, by all means go ahead.  He was on the ice for 3 goals against during the Buffalo game.  Where those Kindl's fault too?  You have no idea.  You're just defending Smith because (for some reason) you don't like the thought that Kindl can, once in a while, play better than Smith does.  He's doing it right now.  Get over it.


Secondly, I know Smith and Dekeyser play tougher minutes.  But that doesn't make their mistakes less harmful.  In fact, it makes them more harmful because when playing against better opponents (or in the defensive zone) your mistakes are MORE likely to end up in the back of the net.  Being a better player means Smith gets more opportunity than Kindl or Lashoff.  That means more opportunity to succeed AND to fail.  For three games our second pair hasn't been succeeding.  And that is demonstrably true. 

#2547602 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 12:19 PM


The flip side of this is that a guy like Ericsson probably looks terrible playing D for a team like Toronto. Babcock's system may stunt player's offensive numbers, but it's probably helped win a few Selke's and made average defensemen good enough to play on the top pairing.


I agree.  But that's part of the problem isn't it?  Making average guys "look" good.  Does anybody remember when Ian White was Lidstrom's partner, and everybody kept commenting that White "looks" like a top pairing guy when playing next to Lids?  It was true, he "looked" fine.  Trouble was, Ian White ISN'T a top pairing defenseman.  And when the rubber hits the road he's going to play like a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy instead of a top pairing guy because that's what he is.  He didn't become better by playing with Lidstrom.  He mistakes were just less harmful. 


That's the by-product of Babs' system.  It can make Ericsson "look" like a number 2 defenseman.  It can make Darren Helm "look" like a top six forward.  And we all forget that ideally you don't want that.  Babs' system can make underachievers competitive sure.  But what happens when you run up against a team that's just as competitive, and has the right players in the right positions?  You get spanked.  Because an average player is an average player. 


Mind you, none if that is Babs' fault.  He plays with what he's got.  If KH wants average top four defense play, he should keep the top four he has now.  If he wants above average play, he needs better defensemen. 

#2547592 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 10:49 AM

Trust me. I only want the treasurer's job as a temp spot.  I'm in the same club as you.  I think we've got a plethora of middling third pair defensemen.  Ship Kindl off to Edmonton or somewhere else players won't typically go. He's signed at a reasonable price for some of those teams for another two years (?)


Hudler's been okay off the Wings. Same with Flip. I can't and won't lament the fact that they're no longer Wings, in the same way that I can't and won't obsess about how prospects that we've traded away are doing. Does it sometimes suck when the player turns out to be great... or is it simply that they're flourishing in a different system/actually given an opportunity. It's the way the business side of the game works. Simple. As. That.

Ericsson isn't having the greatest of starts, but he's not as bad as some like to moan about.


I agree.  I said the same thing about Kindl and Smith the other day to krsmith.  I think they would both be much better under a different coach's system.  Babs doesn't want guys who wheel and deal and both those guys have skill sets conducive to a run and gun style of play.  Babs wants guys like Lids, Kronwall, and Rafalski who are all smart, heads up, defensemen who add offense through point shots and great passing.  Not Kind or Smith's game. 

#2547586 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 10:17 AM

Lets be honest -- The eyeball test, your favorite players, and hated players all factor into the hows and whys of who and what we want for our team, but lets use the information that's available too.  WE'RE IN THE AGE OF ANALYTICS!  It's all out there to be had. Just make sure you use legit sources. Simple as that.


Some folks wouldn't trade Smith for anything.  Some wouldn't trade Jurco or Tatar.

Hell, some of us are still lamenting the Calle Jarnkrok trade... it's why we're here.

To talk about the team we love. Good or bad.


Also, kip... if you're the President of the "Kindl4Prez" fanclub, can I at least be the treasurer.  If he could just reign in the mistakes a bit, his value could be... well, at least decent.


Well don't misunderstand me.  I'm the President of his fan club only inasmuch as I want him to do well enough to get traded.  He's not a terrible third pairing defenseman but he gets paid too much and I really like some of those kids. 


Can Jurco still go to GR?


Yes.  He's still got minor league options. 


Kindl will be a "solid" D-man on LGW by this time next year. Then we'll all hate him again after a bad pass at some point.


If Kindl plays good enough for LGW to call him "solid" he'll be on another team next year.  Catch-22. 

#2547569 GDT 11/5/14--Wings @ Rangers

Posted by kipwinger on 06 November 2014 - 09:16 AM

I had to turn the game off a little early last night.  Do my eyes deceive me or did Jakub Kindl nab a goal and assist last night?


I hope he keeps that up for about 5 more games so we can trade his ass.


Anybody not on board the "Kindl 4 Prez" bandwagon right now doesn't love this team.


Simple as that.

#2546974 Clearly and Nestrasil in

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 06:48 PM

Man do I feel sorry for Dan Cleary tonight.  If he even breathes the wrong way LGW is going to explode.  To say he's under a microscope is the understatement of the season so far.

#2546926 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 12:08 PM


I'm not sure playing under Mike "every-dayer" Babcock is the right place to bring out the best in Semin's game, where he's more likely to get benched than where he currently is (in Carolina, on the bench until last night).  I'll give you he's a pheneomenal goal scorer with one of the best shots in the league, which is precicesly what the Wings could use to round out their top six.  But he takes days off.  He doesn't play a complete game.  And this has been something consistent with him throughout his career.  Before he signed in Carolina that was the big knock on him.  He did well to regain his reputation for the first part of his contract in Carolina, but late last year he fell apart again, and from that point throughout the entirety of this season so far Semin has been more of a liability than an offensive threat.  Perhaps Babcock can clean up his game and get him working for 200 feet and bringing it every night, and if that happens he would be an awesome acquisition.  But if he continues to be Alex Semin as we curently know him, I think he'll be riding pine with Cleary for many nights, or playing on the third/fourth line, because I don't think Babcock will tolerate it as much as other coaches may have in the past.

Just a side note: the more I think on it, the more I realize how difficult it is to actually be an offensive powerhouse in Babcock's system.  Everyone plays defense first.  Everyone plays 200 feet.  Nobody takes risks to try to earn an odd-man rush or force a turnover if it means being out of position with noone to back you up.  They win as a team.  They lose as a team.  That's why I think it was so devastating to have lost out on Hossa, because he was one of the few players in the league who could do what Semin does, but also fit perfectly into a defense-oriented coaching philosophy.


I agree.  And I've said so a couple of times already.  Babs would hate his guts. 


But there's always a little bug in my brain when I think about this.  Remember when we had Brunner, and he didn't play s*** for defense, and he was largely invisible in every other way except that in the first part of the season he was scoring goals? 


There was a quote from Babs (that I'm trying to track down now) where he says something to the effect of "It's hard to take a guy out of the lineup if he's scoring". 


Also, and I said so in the GDT as well...If I've heard once, I've heard a thousand times about how Mike Babcock is the best at getting the most out of players.  "Every second, of every shift, of every game" seems to be the consensus when it comes to how well Babs' maximizes talent.  All last year we heard about how he dragged a bunch of kids into the playoffs through his ability to get the most out of guys.  Ok, prove it.  Give him this guy.  Huge talent, inconsistent.  Let's see how true it is.  Everybody can coach Pavel Datsyuk.  It would take a great coach to get the absolute most out of Semin. 

#2546906 Lines Thread

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 10:25 AM

Kip you need to be broken of this Semin obsession.


I've wanted a first rate shooter on Datsyuk's wing since Hossa left (that year he had almost 100 pts).  That's the last time we had someone to bury the myriad chances that Datsyuk creates.  When Gaborik was available I wanted Gaborik.  I wanted Nash before that.  Now that Semin's available I want Semin. 


There's no mistaking my obsession with this one guiding principle...we have one of the best playmakers of the last 20 years and nobody to finish for him.  Dats and Z are both going to get 20+ goals this year, with the right line combos so will Nyquist and Franzen.  Semin would too.  And Tatar will end up close...but it's iffy.  Think about that. 


It's not about Semin as a person.  Sometimes I think fans get attached to players' personalities as if professional sports is a popularity contest.  To me, Alexander Semin is nothing more than one of the best shooters in the NHL...and the only one available.  That skill set would look awfully nice along side one of the best passers in the game.  And what do you know, we happen to already have that guy. 

#2546901 GDT:11/4 Detroit Red Wings vs. Ottawa Senators 7:30p.m

Posted by kipwinger on 05 November 2014 - 09:52 AM

Wow people are really freaking out.  We played like absolute s*** the last 2 games and almost beat both teams.  Tatar/Jurco just need to adjust, hell it seems as though you can see those 2 slowly emerging from their slumps. Calm down everyone


First of all, nobody is "freaking out".  While it's probably easier to argue with someone after you've painted them as hysterical, for the sake of reasonable discourse maybe cut down on the hyperbole a little bit.


Secondly, I imagine people would be less freaked out if we were steam rolling teams and then just lost a stinker or two here and there.  But that's not really the case.  Only about half our victories are convincing, and many of our loses are brutal to watch.  Be can barely score goals, and our powerplay is a mess.  Then add on top of that, two loses in two games to two very bad teams and I think it's reasonable for people to be concerned.  Is this the end of the line for our team?  Nope.  But last season is starting to look vaguely familiar.