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No, that's not your point. You said he was average. You didn't say "Howard = Not elite"; you said "Howard = Average" and then you said What? Please tell me what the Mrazek train is? The magical NHL games he played? We have absolute NO knowledge how he is going to play in his first game, nor in the NHL. There is NO Mrazek train and it hasn't even ARRIVED at the station. Once again, "just average" doesn't translate to "not elite". If you're going to start a thread, and try to make a point, please don't backtrack the moment people don't agree with you.

Like who?

Tatar didn't score, nor did he singlehandedly earn the Wings scoring opportunities, but that's not his role (just yet). What Tatar did do well was demonstrate an excellent hockey sense in predicting where the puck was going, and getting himself to that spot, where he ended up with the puck on his stick. There was an excellent example of this in the third, when our defenseman (can't remember who) pinced down to the half boards to dump the puck back in deep. Instead of hanging out at the faceoff dot for a pass or dropping behind the net to pick up the dump in, Tatar went to the blue line, and sure enough, the puck was immediately turned over and shot up the boards directly to him, where he was able to keep the attack alive. He was also tenacious on the puck. Tatar seemed to chase the puck down wherever it went in the offensive zone, instead of waiting around for a teammate to do all the work. Also, despite his small frame, he was mucking it up in the corners and along the boards and did not seem the least bit phased. To be honest (and I'll likely get flamed for this), he reminded me of Darren Helm, at least with how passionately and intent he was playing. He doesn't have the crash that Helm has, but at least last night he had Helm's heart.

Yeah, and my great-granny squatted in the barn, dropped out a kid, and went right back to milkin' Old Bossie. Sure, the infant and maternal mortality rates were triple what they are now, but hey- those old mothers were tough! It makes a great story when a guy loses all but his canine teeth and keeps playing, or when a guy gets speared in the yambags, gets sewn up, and comes back to get a hat trick with 37 stitches in the family jewels, but times have changed, and so has modern medicine. Blood was once something you played through, now it's a biohazard. Concussions were once something you just shook off and played through, and then told stories about later. Now we know the long-term effects. Remember when Z had all those back troubles and people were complaining about his lost ice time? I'd bet you dollars to donuts that if he'd played through it, he'd be a shell of the player he is today, if he was still playing at all. I'm sure the lovely Emma is glad he took care of his back. Medicine has come a long way. As much as I love a good story and testament to the manliness of hockey players, I'd rather see a guy sit now, and go on to play longer and live better afterwards. If we need good stories, we'll always have Gilchrist. Ouch, man. Just... Ouch.

You have been better lately but this comment is just plain stupid.

We have a war room that is staffed in Toronto for goals in dispute, why can't they dispute for hit to the head?

Are the Wings too soft? I understand a sliced leg and broken bones, but our whole team sits out with owies. Im getting a little fed up with soreness issues.

Tatar is Hudler minus the hookers!!

Tatar worked hard out there, drew a penalty, cycled decently. IMO he is a huge upgrade on Hudler because he has puck winning skills rather than needing more hard working players to give him the puck. Kid needs more than 1 game to show he is more than huds.

I blame Dats for not scoring on his four chances. He should single-handedly be able to win us the cup. Dammit Pavs!

No, I didn't. I guess I meant he didn't do anything to produce points. But I thought he brought an element to the game that this team needs right now.

Edzo.... the only words/phrases he can actually say are the following: chicago, blackhawks, chicago blackhawks, toews, amazing 2010, 2010 was the best season, oh my god look at kane, kaner!, look at those hawks, wowzer those hawks are looking good this year, man i love chicago, chicagos a great city, how about those hawks?

Howard kept is in a lot of games until now. Where were you then? We lose, Howard sucks, every forward sucks, every defender sucks, the world is ending, get the razorblades and candles it's time to check out! We win, we're awesome, life is good and we're acting as peppy as a guy in an ad for boner pills. I wonder why I even come here after a loss.

Well, by simple virtue of not having Lids on the blueline any defensive corps is going to take a major step down so yeah, you'd have to go back to the days when #5 was Darren Veitch. And right now Kindl is looking like another Yves Racine. (i'm old ) But yeah, this is a very piecemeal looking collection. A lot of middle pairing guys at best, many of whom aren't even playing like a middle pairing. Howard isn't anywhere near the top of the problems with the Wings right now. He's not elite but very good. And with the cap continuing to get ratcheted down it's probably better to have a value goaltender than having a ton of cap space tied up in one player.

Sure didn't. If there was a trophy for worst player in the NHL he'd have won it. He was disgracefully bad last year, but then again, he is this year too. He's on a mad point streak, oh wait....

I don't think J-Ho is a nickname you want to call someone you like...

Saw a story on Icethetics about how someone was able to get pictures of player shirts that were made for the now-cancelled W.C. All speculation, of course, since nothing official was released by either team, nor the NHL.

Wow.... WOW! We want to start throwing the blame down range at Jimmy? Open your eyes. Howard has been the one keeping us from getting screwed 6-0 every game. We wouldn't have won a single game without Jimmy, plain and simple. You're right, you know all those breakaways, the penalty shot last night, all those 5 on 3's, all those PK'ers... you're right, he certainly hasn't been there... /sarcasm Please, if it wasn't for Howard, we would be getting DESTROYED. The past two games is simply because of his workload, go try and play consecutive games knowing that there isn't an option to save your ass. There's a reason why Babcock has been playing him consecutively, we NEED him. Unfortunately, I completely agree that Mrazek should've played last night, even if it was after the 4th goal and was simply the last 4/5 minutes. Then again, you don't want to throw your goalie in there only to get lit up for 5 minutes and have absolutely no confidence.

I've always thought Howard was an average goalie and it's become apparent now that we don't have a defense. Here's the difference though. If Howard wants to truly be a next level goalie he needs to make those saves when the defense leaves him out to try. Howard doesn't do that. He has a couple flashy saves that make him look like a beast and then he lets in some softies. However that said, Howard isn't as high on the list of problems as some of the other things such as lack of defense, lack of offense, complete absence of a power play, and a lack luster PK. Those are more pressing needs.

Have you tried Midol?

What I like about his mask is that he knows who he is. He represents Grand Rapids and Detroit on the mask. Not some goalie that says if I don't play in the NHL I'm going home. Refreshing attitude hope he isn't up here so they can showcase him for a trade be a shame after painting such a wonderful mask.

That's the American Dream, isn't it? I agree with 55fan - this forum in general has gotten a lot more whiny and a TON more disrespectful since I joined back in '07. The man single-handedly put Detroit back on the map as a sports town. He has provided most of us (including me) a hockey team that has made the playoffs in almost every year I've followed them with his own money... and don't think he was making wild profits back in the lean years when he was giving away a car every game to get people in the seats. I think he deserves a reward - both in money and *RESPECT* - for bringing sports, fans and jobs to my favorite city in the world.

I never thought I would say this but I miss Sammy. I have never been a huge Samuelsson fan but he can provide secondary scoring. If I am Babs, I would sit Cleary....sorry to all the fans of 11,but he has been terrible. He turns the puck over constantly. He makes misguided decisions with the puck....and he has lost a step. He and Miller have been the biggest disappointments so far. When Helm is back wit h Samuelsson, bring up Nyqvist and sit Cleary. To me he is the obvious choice although I know he is fan fav and he is trying but at this point, he is a liability even in his own end where he was an asset.

Is that you kenny? I thought we discussed drinking at work.

Samuelsson