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Its a tough one given 2 different generstions and 2 very different kinds of players. My vote, biased as he is my favorite player of all time, goes to nick lidstrom. In my opinion there are many factors that go into this. Lidstrom won 7 norris trophies but he should have won 10. The longetivity and durability gives lidstrom another vote. We had 21 amazing years of lidstrom and each season he played nearly every game. While orr was no dount better offensively, lidstrom was the better all around dman. He consistently shut down top players, all the while helping lead the charge against them with his perfect outlet pass. In an era where it was much more difficult to score points, lidstrom still managed to get over 1000 points for a dman. Lastly, lidstrom was one of the smartest players i have ever seen. He knew plays that were developing and had an abilty to read and react to them before they even happened. Though it is close and extrememy hard to compare, nick lidstrom is in my opinion the best dman of all time.

exactly. when your linemates can't bury a wide open chance to save their lives, you're not going to get a lot of assists. Add the pathetic PP system and the overall terrib;e coaching, and anyone woulds struggle

If we have an opportunity to get Trouba or Hamilton, you deal the pick. Like someone said, by time their due for a huge raise, we'll have plenty of cap space. We haven't touched on when they sign Tavares after next season...

You can't evaluate a player solely on OHL points. Sproul had 66 points in 50 games, Ekblad had 53 points in 58 games. I dont think anyone would argue Sproul was a better player going into the draft then Ekblad. I couldn't care less that Trouba is from Michigan, and that truly has zero to do with me wanting us to acquire him. I dont live in Michigan (same goes for krsmith17) so why would I care. I want to acquire him because he is a player who has 1A D-man upside and wants out of his current situation. Name me another player in the NHL that is 22 or younger with that upside and wants out. If players like Ekblad or OEL were available I would want them to, but they are not going anywhere.

I'm probably naive and maybe just hopeful but I think it's too soon to be talking about this stuff, as bad as we been we still have a shot in the top 3 of our division I can't for the life of me believe that nyquist and sheahan will go the rest of the way with 2-5 goals combined , they have to wake up at some point , Larkin has to break out , mantha is an emerging threat ,athanasiou is coming, abdelkader soon arriving ... I just think we'll be in the hunt so holland won't deal assets ... But for the hell of it vanek - could fetch a late first , if not 2nd and maybe an additional mid pick green - don't think he gets moved , but maybe a second and a mid level prospect miller - 7th rounder/future considerations smith - 3rd rounder , maybe a 7th on another year as well if we're lucky zero chance of trading Ericsson and Howard , also unlikely but I'd like to see us deal a tatar/nyquist to the ducks for a carlsson/Theodore , gotta take a risk on a promising young dman, no ones gonna give us an elite dman

For the most part I think your expectations are a bit unrealistic, though I hope you are right. As far as Nyquist/Tatar, I dont even consider it for a 4th. I would rather use one of them in a package for a d-man.

Trouba is 22 years, DD is 26, for a D-man that is a HUGE difference. You cannot compare the two, very very weak argument on your part. Please do not twist my argument around to fit your narrative. What I said was that Trouba has the POTENTIAL to be elite, I never once said he is currently elite. I cant remember anyone ever saying that DD had the potential to be elite, not even close to the same situation.

Talking about a player's trade value has nothing to do with "wanting to get rid of them". Ott is an impeding UFA, therefore he is being brought up. Its no different then Green, Smith, Miller, or Vanek. Where did you get the impression that is a "worry"?

I think Vanek could fetch a 2nd rounder, but I dont think Green will get anything close to what Yandle got. He may be able to fetch a first rounder, but I'm not sold on that. Smith could probably get us a 3rd or 4th. Miller and Ott will likely get us low picks or "future considerations". As far as the others, most teams dont acquire talent at the deadline that are not impending UFA's. So I dont see us getting good value for guys like Tatar, Nyquist etc. Moves like that are made in the off-season, or at least used to. Personally I would like to hang on to Nyquist and trade Tatar but I think we should be open to all and any offers.

Did Orr play against the best of the best? Or when he played was is predominantly a North American league?

With that type of thinking this team is going nowhere. If an elite d-man comes your way you take him. Also, by the time he would be due for a big contract, Howard, Green, Vanek, Miller, Ott,and Smith will all be gone. Plus I would also bet Kronwall will be on LTIR ala Franzen come two years from now. Cap space will not be an issue. Look at what the Leafs did with Phenuef, Kessel and Clarkson, you dump a few contracts and you are fine.

9/10 times this question is asked anywhere other than Letsgowings.com people will say Bobby Orr. Of course here, we're all homers for Lidstrom so we'll blindly say it's him. But you guys know me and I'm going to be real about it as much as I loved Lidstrom.... Nick Lidstrom didn't win his first Norris trophy till he was 30 years old and many of the amazing defenseman in the NHL (such as Coffey, Chelios, Borque, Leetch) were either retiring or well past their prime. Because of this, many Non-Red Wing fans have considered Lidstrom a tad bit overrated when it comes to using the "well he won 7 norris trophies" argument. Now before anyone gets offended, I'm not saying I agree with this. But it's just something I've read/heard over the years. Specifically I've heard the argument that "well Lidstrom couldn't win the Norris till the best defenseman retired and he was 30 when he was first able to do it". On the other hand, Bobby Orr won the Norris in his 2nd year and then like 8 years in a row after that. Bobby Orr revolutionized the game and had an impact that NO ONE has done or ever will do. Not even Lidstrom. Who is better? We can't really answer that. Bobby Orr was probably more skilled. Lidstrom was just a really smart player. His hockey IQ was second to none in his prime. But that doesn't mean Orr's wasn't either.

So what was your favourite part of his post? The fact that he just made up numbers or that he strayed from his original argument? 32 points in 54 games? Where are you getting these numbers? He put up 29 points in 37 games at UofM, and he put up 18 points in 22 games in his final season (draft year) in the USHL... And what's your point anyway? Why does it matter what kind of production Trouba had at the college level? Your argument is that Foote is better offensively NOW than Trouba is NOW, which is asinine... Trouba is not "the 4th best defenseman on Winnipeg" either. Byfuglien may be better right now, but Enstrom and Meyers definitely aren't. EDIT: I see where you came up with the 32 points in 54 games, but I don't get why you would add together his Junior and US National U18 stats, or what it even has to do with your original argument...

Except he didn't when he was in Junior. In the 11/12 season while playing for the USNDP he played 54 games and had 32 points. At Michigan he had 1 good year as well. Foote on the other hand is heading for 50+ points this year in the WHL. Next season will be his 3rd year and he should be even better unless he makes his NHL drafting team out of camp. Back to Trouba. If he wasn't from Michigan NO ONE would be pushing so hard or have such a high opinion of him. He is the 4th best Dman on the Jets behind Buff, Toby, and Meyers-who is hurt. Now would I want him for say Nyquist and Smith? Yes I would. I proposed that trade while he was holding out.

No he's not a UFA, he's is an RFA again. Trouba is only 22 and he has quite a few years left under team control. I believe most guys become UFA's around 26 or 28.

Trade him. I really don't care at all at this point. Very few guys on this team, including Tatar, have much heart anyways. The level of apathy on display this season is pathetic. I'm truly ready for a full rebuild. This team lacks character; it's a sorry class of clowns for the most part. You don't have to have the most talented bunch, but you need guys with heart; you need winners. These guys are not winners.

I think the lack of assists is more the issue here, but then again look at who he has been playing with.

Does this mean the GM should be fired? Shouldn't he have gotten a pick for him? I hope now that pretty much every play we lost on waivers got put back on them, people realize that very low end players have no trade value.

Its all about probability. The probability of Trouba becoming a 1A d-man is much higher then a top 5 pick being a 1A d-man. Unless we are talking a can't miss like an Ekblad, I take Trouba every time.

He's still a RFA after his contract is up.

There's no guarantee that they'd be successful in today's NHL even with the same benefits. Maybe Orr doesn't have quite the work ethic that's needed to even get to the NHL let alone thrive in it. Maybe his commitment to the game isn't as extreme as it needs to be to be successful today. Maybe he isn't interested in getting strong enough to play today and following the strict diet and exercise regiments required of players today. Maybe he wouldn't gel with how the game is coached and played today. One of the biggest reasons Orr was so successful is that he made a living exploiting a weakness in the way the game was played back then, which no longer exists today. Orr wouldn't be flabbergasting opposing coaches if he continuously joined the rush on breakouts (or led them), or acted as a fourth forward on a drive to the net if he did it today. Those things aren't at all unusual to see today and the league has adapted accordingly. So that niche that made him so successful to begin with is no longer there waiting for him to exploit it. But all that imo is irrelevant because we're just talking hypotheticals now, and the reality is he played the game in a time where the dedication, technology, knowledge, physical requirements, etc were not as high as they are today and that put a limit on what he was capable of. Its a limit that doesn't exist today (or more accurately its a limit that is significantly reduced today). So if we're looking at the question of who is the best defensman to lace up the skates in this reality that we all live in, and not based on a hypothetical scenario where everything comes up Millhouse, Orr is a longshot IMO. This reality didn't gift him with all the advancements in the game that we have today. Not a knock on him at all. But I personally don't think he's even close to the best defensman of all time, unless you define best of all time as "best of his generation" or "most significantly dominated his respective generation". He has compelling arguments for both of those titles, but the much more generalized "best of all time" I don't think is close, even if its blasphemous or controversial to say.

He'd be a good pickup for GR. That's it though.

Is Blashill finally starting to get it? He has the top 6 exactly the way I'd have it... Nyquist - Zetterberg - Mantha Athanasiou - Nielsen - Vanek And the only change I would make in the bottom 6... Tatar - Larkin - Abdelkader Miller - Sheahan - Glendening is scratch Miller, but Abby down on the 4th line, and insert Jurco on the 3rd line... The defense pairs are... DeKeyser - Green Ericsson - Marchenko Ouellet - Sproul so no real complaints there either based on what we have available... And Mrazek starting...

I don't think drafting right-handed defensemen is as important as it was a few years ago. We currently have Sproul, Russo, Marchenko, Jensen, Hronek, Saarijarvi and Sambrook in the system that shoot right-handed. Of course not all of them will pan out, but I believe we have at least two (Sproul, Russo, Hronek) that could fill the top 4, and another few that could fill the bottom pair. I'd be more concerned about looking for right-handed forwards. We don't have a single top 6 forward in the system that shoots right-handed. The only few we have are Glendening, Nastasiuk, and Frk, which are all bottom 6 at best... I agree with LeftWinger in trading our pick for a top pair defenseman if possible. This is supposedly a very weak draft class, so if we can trade a top 5 pick for a Trouba or Hamilton, I'd do it in a heartbeat. There seems to be question marks with just about every single player in this draft, and I'm not really sold on Liljegren or whoever else may be available. If we can get an already (or closer to becoming) stud defenseman, I'm all for that...

If what we are doing now is the opposite of tanking, then give me "tanking". Never liked that term anyway. But it is what it is. I am all for moving out as much salary as we can and picking up more picks and prospects. If that is tanking then so be it. This team as currently constructed will never win any PO games/series.