kipwinger

You're right, I stand corrected. We couldn't sign him next year, we'd have to wait until his bridge deal is done. Either way, my feeling is still the same. If we really wants to play for Detroit as badly as people suggest he does, then just wait until he's a UFA to sign him (regardless of when that is). Not like we're going to be competitive for a few years anyway, so what's the rush?

I told you to look at Orlov (as an example) because his HERO chart, which you were showing for Shattenkirk and Trouba is "across the board" better than theirs. And I only bring him up because he's an example of your "moneypuck" idea, but doesn't get a 10th the fanfare (or the insane LGW trade proposals). I don't "like" him anymore than I "like" Trouba. I'm just fully aware that he's an example of a guy that's quite a lot better than Trouba in a number of meaningful ways, yet nobody seems to be suggesting that we trade our organizations' top prospects for him. Wonder why people are willing to throw away organizational depth for a guy who's (at best) in the same ballpark as guys like Shattenkirk, and who we could easily sign a few years from now (if he's as high on Detroit as his fans seem to suggest) without losing a single asset? Clearly not because he's super good, you yourself just said he's neither better nor worse than Washington's 3rd best defenseman.

To tell you the truth, I don't give a s*** about "liking" individual players. I'm not asking them to come over and babysit my daughter, so I don't need to like them at all. You could literally replace every single player on our team with a different player and I'd be happy as long as the Red Wings were better afterward. I'm a fan of the team.

Out of curiousity, how do you define "defending" in the NHL? Like, what exactly isn't Shattenkirk good at?

Firstly, your Trouba>>>Orlov & Shattenkirk statement is not supported by anything other than your fetish for a young player. Which is asinine. But I don't know why I'd expect anything less from a guy who once said Brendan Smith was untouchable because he was a "dynamic offensive defenseman". Or that Jurco was a "top six winger". lol. You're absolutely one of the worst around here for trying to justify personnel moves based on whether or not you "like" a guy. Secondly, Trouba ISN'T AVAILABLE EITHER. There has been no credible source saying Trouba wants out of Winnipeg, or that Winnipeg wants to trade Trouba, since he signed his new contract. Add to that the fact that Tim Cheveldayoff is the league's least frequent "trader" and the fact that Winnipeg AREN'T rebuilding. There is no indication that this is likely. You just REALLY WANT it to happen, so as usual, you're selectively using bits of information to justify it. Just more evidence of exactly the thing I'm talking about. People willing to part with good assets, for marginal returns, because they irrationally like players who aren't as good as fans would like them to be.

Tons of defensemen are better than what we have right now, doesn't mean I'd trade good prospects for them. And I've elsewhere made trade proposals involving Nyquist/Tatar for a defenseman, so stop acting like I'm against trading ANYONE for a defensive upgrade. I'd be happy to move someone who's a little older to a team looking to win now for a defensive upgrade. I'm not, however, interested in throwing away guys who we'll need a few years from now for a guy who's biggest asset is "he's better than what we have". Also, your Cabrera analogy is bull. Cabrera was already a superstar player when we traded for him. Trouba isn't even a top pair defenseman on his own team. That's the sticking point. You're acting like, and making trade proposals like, he's a better player than he is. Would I trade Svech (and others) for Erik Karlsson? That's a more apt comparison to Cabrera, which you well know.

I see that you seem to be all about "young guys, with room to grow, and could help the team for 12+ years" when they aren't currently on the team. But if we're talking about the Wings' young guys, with room to grow, and could help the team for 12+ years you readily insinuate that they're not likely to ever reach that ceiling. You're being awfully selective here. Young guys with potential are GREAT as long as you like them, and if you don't then they're just one step away from being a total bust. I'm not against Jacob Trouba at all. I think he's a decent player. What bothers me is that his myth has grown to such proportions that he's now talked about as if he's some stud defenseman already and not a guy who very well may never turn into what you're pretending he already is. He's infinitely more likely to be another Bouwmeester or Tyler Myers than he is to be another Doughty, Subban, or Josi. If you want to take that risk, fine, but your stated reasons for doing so are completely phony. Edit: As a matter of fact, I remember when Jay Bouwmeester was on the block, and the rumor was that Detroit was offering "prospects" Tatar AND Nyquist for him. A good portion of LGW was all about that because "Tatar and Nyquist weren't guaranteed to be anything at the NHL level". And while neither of them are superstars, I'm still glad we've got their combined 80+ points a season over anything Jay Bouwmeester would have provided to this team.

You and I discussed Orlov, and WE agreed that he's very good. Nobody else had ever mentioned him. I bring him up precisely because he's the anti-Trouba. A guy nobody nobody mentions despite the fact that he outperforms guy Jacob Trouba across the board. Don't get it twisted, this isn't about Trouba being good. There are plenty of defensemen as good or better than Trouba. This is about Trouba being popular, which is a different thing. That's why it's so annoying. People don't want the best defenseman available, they want a guy they "like", and are willing to pay astronomical prices to get him. Look up Orlov's HERO. It's better across the board than Shattenkirk AND Trouba. So why no love for that guy around here? Because a huge portion of LGW doesn't care about getting the best player, they want a team full of guys they like.

What's your point? Kevin Shattenkirk would be Detroit's best defenseman by a long shot too. You're just finding a bunch of post hoc justifications to advocate for someone based solely on the fact that you like them. Nothing more. None of that makes Trouba worth the price you're mentioning. I'm not saying Svech or anybody else is untouchable. I don't think they are. I just think if you're going to move the top prospects in your organization you'd better be getting someone really good. Not someone who you hope might be really good one day.

Kevin Shattenkirk is an "established defenseman". So what? Regardless of how you mince words, you're suggesting Svech is expendible because he's all "potential" and then whitewashing the fact that Trouba hasn't done much of note in his career by saying he's "young" (i.e. he's got "potential"). Or where you suggesting Trouba is an "established" top pair defenseman? Because that's demonstrably false. He's literally never, ever, played regularly on the top pair in his NHL career.

Excelled is a bit strong here. He was better than in previous seasons sure, but that's because up to this point he's been a fairly disappointing for a top ten draft pick. His excellent season you're describing came about because Tyler Myers got hurt, saw Trouba afforded all the ice time and special teams time a guy could ask for, and he scored 33 points. Lol. That's not exactly excellent. He had a worse year in almost every meaningful category than a guy like Dmitry Orlov, yet nobody is out there suggesting we should trade top prospects for Orlov. Why? Because Trouba (for whatever reason) is a darling around here and Orlov is relatively unknown. It's baffling to me the way people describe Trouba despite that fact that in every measurable way he's only pretty good. Not a "top defenseman". Not "excelling". Not anything superlative. Just good. And you don't trade your organization's top prospects for someone who is merely good.

So is Svechnikov, but you seem pretty sure he'll never amount to much. What makes Trouba different?

Neither is Trouba but that doesn't stop people for getting all gushy for him. Jacob Trouba has never, ever, ever, ever, played as a top defenseman in the NHL. So if that's the standard we're holding against Shattenkirk then we'd all better be sure to apply it to whomever else is the pet of the day.

Yup. He's ridiculous. It's insane that in the course of two years the Preds lost Weber AND Jones and their defense is better than it was. Must be nice. Then again, Ryan Ellis is completely underrated and he's on the same team. So maybe it's a trend. Edit: Oh, and Peter Laviolette is probably the league's most underrated coach, so it's probably a trend.

Nope. He's not a center or a defenseman. And he's not noticeably better than any of our current top six wingers, so he's not even really an upgrade at his own position. This would make ZERO sense.