Sheahan and a 5th for Wilson and a 3rd

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Wow, I must have missed this story over the weekend.  How could anybody actually want Sheahan?  Guy is useless.  If there's anything Holland has done well consistently during his tenure, it's get rid of players who didn't amount to anything outside of Detroit (though Leino gave us that scare in the 2010 playoffs).      

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by GMRwings1983

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Just now, krsmith17 said:

Why? Because that's all he's done in the past 10 years? Or because he's specifically said that he won't make big trades? I don't think he's ever said that... Again, I don't think he will make a big trade, but I do think he should. What's the issue with that?

Because he's specifically stated that his philosophy is building through the draft.... and his record reflects that

I mean take it to mean what you want, but personally I doubt he will start building through trades if his philosophy is building through the draft....

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

There is nothing wrong with trying to build thru the draft. In the salary cap era it's a necessity. And of course it shouldn't be the only strategy, and as krsmith said you supplement it with trades and free agent signings. But the question is this: Is Holland succeeding on any of these fronts?

CRL pointed out that there hasn't been a meaningful dman drafted since Kronwall  (unless you count Smith or Quincey). That is an area of deficiency that Holland has addressed thru free agency (Green, Daley). But those guys are older and aren't building blocks. If we want good, young defensemen we can either wait a few more years and hope that Hronek, Saarajarvi, Cholowski pan out (Holland's track record isn't encouraging) or we can trade for one with an area that Holland has done reasonably well at: drafting forwards. Which one is best is up for debate.

I don't think fans are complaining about the "draft first" mentality, just that  (a.) he seems to be relying on it too much (b.) he isn't doing a good enough job at it (c.) he isn't doing well enough in the supplementary areas (d.) he seems to contradict himself by trading away the players he's drafting to rebuild with (credit Jonas). 

[kickazz 5,459]

100% the next GM is going to get chewed out by krsmith, dickie, marcatac, frank, leftwinger, bill berzeench and all the other anti-holland crew.

Gonna be the next Babcock/Blashill situation except Holland/New GM 

It will take 2-3 years though. So if Holland leaves in 2018 come back in 2021 and grab your popcorn. 

While I do think Holland should step down (or step up), my expectation of the next GM is not much. Even if Yzerman were to come here I am not expecting him to land a defenseman (that will end up working out) via trade. At all. 

I mean yeah maybe we could end up getting Trouba with new GM. But if Kipwinger is correct Trouba could end up not even being that good. Which would mean the trade was useless. So the question would be, was Holland a genius for avoiding the move and is the new GM an idiot for not seeing it? 

So many hypotheticals it's getting juicy. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by kickazz

[krsmith17 7,191]

4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Because he's specifically stated that his philosophy is building through the draft.... and his record reflects that

I mean take it to mean what you want, but personally I doubt he will start building through trades if his philosophy is building through the draft....

Again, take what GM's say with a grain of salt.

I have to ask though, are you happy with that philosophy? Do you think we should build this team solely through the draft / free agency? Do you believe that to be a recipe for success? I don't, which is why I'll keep hoping for a trade, or hoping he be replaced by someone that would be willing to make the necessary changes / adjustments...

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

20 minutes ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Wow, I must have missed this story over the weekend.  How could anybody actually want Sheahan?  Guy is useless.  If there's anything Holland has done well consistently during his tenure, it's get rid of players who didn't amount to anything outside of Detroit (though Leino gave us that scare in the 2010 playoffs).      

 

I don't think he was completely useless. He was just poorly used. I thought he was a decent 3C, but Blashill kept slotting him in on the wing and on the 4th line. So he struggled mightily. It became obvious once AA was signed that he was a goner. Would have preferred to keep both on a 23 man roster, but the cap didn't allow for it, and no one was taking Helm, Glenny, or Abby's contracts. Holland got a decent return considering his value at the time, but didn't really get as much back as I would have liked to considering the investment.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Again, take what GM's say with a grain of salt.

I have to ask though, are you happy with that philosophy? Do you think we should build this team solely through the draft / free agency? Do you believe that to be a recipe for success? I don't, which is why I'll keep hoping for a trade, or hoping he be replaced by someone that would be willing to make the necessary changes / adjustments...

Grain of salt? You disagree that that is his philosophy?

I'm fine with it

[krsmith17 7,191]

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Grain of salt? You disagree that that is his philosophy?

I'm fine with it

No, I don't doubt that is his "philosophy". But I don't think that being his philosophy means he cannot / will not make any trades. You can build through the draft, and also make a trade or two to upgrade the team. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

So you believe this team can be built back up solely through the draft, not making any big trades? I guess it could, but I highly doubt it...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

No, I don't doubt that is his "philosophy". But I don't think that being his philosophy means he cannot / will not make any trades. You can build through the draft, and also make a trade or two to upgrade the team. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

So you believe this team can be built back up solely through the draft, not making any big trades? I guess it could, but I highly doubt it...

I didn't say it did. He just made two trades. But If you're expecting him to acquire cornerstone players and build this team up with significant trades, I'll restate my original point, you're going to be disappointed. That's not his philosophy.

[Jacksoni 418]

Well we ain't got much. Green is a pawn, he'll be dealt at the deadline. What else we got.. Howard might be dealt if a need arises around the deadline. Nyqvist or Tatar are possible trading cards I suppose.

But that's about it. We got them kids Larkin, Mantha, possibly AA but can't shop them, it's suicide.

We are in my view literally between a rock and a hard place. Have to suck and draft. And enjoy our kids while doing it, if possible, hence my bullyness on getting AA back asap.

[Dabura 12,207]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:17 AM, Buppy said:

Lack of trades only in the context of the team has declined and trading is something you can easily point at and say could have been done differently.

I mean...yeah?

On 10/23/2017 at 4:17 AM, Buppy said:

If Smith had become the next Rafalski and Sproul had developed into a stud #1 and we we're coming off a Cup win instead of missing the playoffs, no one would be making lame "Trades are hard" jokes or wanting Holland out and someone else to come in and shake things up.

I mean...yeah?

On 10/23/2017 at 4:17 AM, Buppy said:

Conversely, if we had gotten Green, Daley, and Dekeyser via trade people would still be complaining, just with slightly different complaints.

I mean...yeah?

On 10/23/2017 at 4:17 AM, Buppy said:

I don't believe "DO SOMETHING!" is at all justified.

I won't throw my lot in with everyone who's ever said it, because I agree that many of the people in question aren't making robust, coherent arguments and that they just like to complain for the sake of complaining and will always find something to complain about. (I can speak from experience; I like complaining about the Wings for the sake of complaining about the Wings. It's cathartic and it's a nice, comfy way to kill some time.) If your point is "Fans are silly," well, you're not wrong. Fans are dumb. It's a truism.

However, I'm not going to agree with you that "DO SOMETHING!" is not at all justified. You can tell me about how hindsight is 20/20. You can tell me about how we didn't know Smith, Sproul, Kindl, et al. wouldn't become cornerstone defensemen. You can tell me about how in an alternate timeline we sign Ryan Suter and win the Cup in 2013. You can tell me about how making trades for the sake of making trades is a stupid man's game. You can tell me about how people who look for things to complain about will always find something to complain about. That's all well and good. I won't dispute any of it. But I can be mostly on-board with what you're saying while at the same time maintaining that Holland really should've traded for a defenseman or two by now. I'm not pushing a radical notion here.

I didn't start clamoring for a big trade only when it became clear that the Cup window had closed. I've been saying we should make a big trade right from the moment I learned Rafalski was retiring, when we were still a legitimate Cup contender. I had wanted Brent Burns. I didn't want to count on Suter signing with us. I didn't want to count on "Kronwall-???" being anything more than a stopgap first pairing. I've always believed trading was the way to go. If I'm guilty of anything, it's being too focused on winning one more Cup before the Cup window unequivocally closed. We could see the overall decline on the horizon as far back as 2011, but until somewhat recently I was of the opinion that a big trade or two could keep us in the hunt.

I'm fine with drafting and developing. I'm fine with not making trades left and right. But Holland has gone out of his way to avoid trading roster players, and that bothers me. Our D situation has steadily degraded since losing Rafalski and Lidstrom and all along the way I've been saying, "Y'know, a trade might not be the worst idea in the world, especially if we're genuinely trying to remain truly competitive and genuinely trying to avoid a long rebuild." But, alas...

"We lost Rafalski, but it's alright, we'll think of something."
"We lost Lidstrom, but it's alright, we'll thinking of something."
"Kronwall isn't an ideal 1D and Smith and Kindl aren't really panning out like we'd hoped they would, but it's alright, we'll think of something."
"Not one of our prospects has become a solid top-three NHL defenseman, but it's alright, we'll think of something."
"Kronwall's not getting any younger, but it's alright, we'll think of something."
"It's looking like DeKeyser is probably nothing more than a second-pairing defenseman, but it's alright, we'll think of something."
"Kronwall has no cartilage in his knee, but it's alright, we'll let him play 20 minutes a night. We need him."

And now we're back to "We have some prospects, it's alright, we can kick the can down the road."

I don't like that it's gotten to this point. I don't think bringing in a Haydn Fleury and/or a Jared Spurgeon would radically alter our fortunes, but at least we'd be helping our D situation. Having a more capable back end could at least clear up the picture a bit. The way things stand right now, we look like a team that's going to have to suck for a long time (if we're being brutally honest). But what if we flip some non-essential pieces for a couple of talented defensemen and the addition of those defensemen makes the team measurably better? Maybe our breakouts improve and our transition game improves and our power play improves and our shot attempts increase and our forwards start scoring more goals and we discover that we actually have a very capable forward group? And maybe the trade value of several of our forwards increases and that opens up a world of possibilities? Maybe Howard and Mrazek start looking like all-stars because we're spending less time in our zone?

It might not play out that way, but at least we'd have a better sense of where we are and what we have. I don't think sticking with what we have is doing us much good, aside from helping us flirt with lottery territory.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Dabura

[DickieDunn 2,571]

21 hours ago, kickazz said:

100% the next GM is going to get chewed out by krsmith, dickie, marcatac, frank, leftwinger, bill berzeench and all the other anti-holland crew.

Gonna be the next Babcock/Blashill situation except Holland/New GM 

It will take 2-3 years though. So if Holland leaves in 2018 come back in 2021 and grab your popcorn. 

While I do think Holland should step down (or step up), my expectation of the next GM is not much. Even if Yzerman were to come here I am not expecting him to land a defenseman (that will end up working out) via trade. At all. 

I mean yeah maybe we could end up getting Trouba with new GM. But if Kipwinger is correct Trouba could end up not even being that good. Which would mean the trade was useless. So the question would be, was Holland a genius for avoiding the move and is the new GM an idiot for not seeing it? 

So many hypotheticals it's getting juicy. 

If the new GM either takes his directions from Holland like I think he will, or continues this s#!t show, yes, he will and should be called out.  If he stops the grinder love-fest that's been going on under Holland, then it will be an improvement.

 

Despite what you seem to think I judge people based on their performances.  When Holland was regularly doing a good job, I supported him.  When he started handing out bad contracts like they were candy on Halloween, I criticized him.  I said he did well with moves like trading Datsyuk, Jurco, Smith, and Sheahan because he deserved it.  I criticized him for Nielsen, Abdlekader, the other bad contracts, and drafting a guy who's not projected to be an impact player when there were players with higher ceilings available because he deserved it.  With the coaching, I always said Babcock was a good coach, but he could be too stubborn, and that it was time for a change.  I reserved judgment on Blashill, unlike others who immediately anointed him the savior who will allow our young guns to finally fly free.   He's failed in almost every way.  That deserves criticism.

[kickazz 5,459]

On 10/24/2017 at 11:25 AM, DickieDunn said:

If the new GM either takes his directions from Holland like I think he will, or continues this s#!t show, yes, he will and should be called out.  If he stops the grinder love-fest that's been going on under Holland, then it will be an improvement.

 

Despite what you seem to think I judge people based on their performances.  When Holland was regularly doing a good job, I supported him.  When he started handing out bad contracts like they were candy on Halloween, I criticized him.  I said he did well with moves like trading Datsyuk, Jurco, Smith, and Sheahan because he deserved it.  I criticized him for Nielsen, Abdlekader, the other bad contracts, and drafting a guy who's not projected to be an impact player when there were players with higher ceilings available because he deserved it.  With the coaching, I always said Babcock was a good coach, but he could be too stubborn, and that it was time for a change.  I reserved judgment on Blashill, unlike others who immediately anointed him the savior who will allow our young guns to finally fly free.   He's failed in almost every way.  That deserves criticism.

Lies.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

7 hours ago, kickazz said:

Lies.

what about that is a lie?  Or are you just being a ******?

[Juklitz 85]

Sheahan.. 

 

...did...

 

score.

[amato 3,210]

4 hours ago, Juklitz said:

Sheahan.. 

 

...did...

 

score.

 

Puts him on pace for almost 7 goals across 82 games with Pittsburgh. That’s 3.5x what he did for us last year! Imagine where he’ll be in a couple years if he keeps up that progress. Way to go holland... 

 

/s  

Edited November 17, 2017 by amato

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

On 17/11/2017 at 8:11 AM, amato said:

 

Puts him on pace for almost 7 goals across 82 games with Pittsburgh. That’s 3.5x what he did for us last year! Imagine where he’ll be in a couple years if he keeps up that progress. Way to go holland... 

 

/s  

If he was drafted elsewhere he'd be a 50 goal scorer. Instead he was mishandled and his precious emotions were shattered. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

If he was drafted elsewhere he'd be a 50 goal scorer. Instead he was mishandled and his precious emotions were shattered. 

Nice trolling Euro_Twins...

I don't think anyone would say that Sheahan would be close to a 50 goal scorer, but I'd definitely hear an argument that he could have been better if handled differently. Whoever argued that would obviously be wrong though, and there would be people here that would argue that opinion for years and years, because Holland and Babcock / Blashill are perfect. They could never do any wrong, especially when it comes to player development... They're professionals. What do us as fans know... NOTHING!

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Sheahan could have been a 40 point player if he ever remembered he was big and not smaller than Jiri Hudler.

[Rick D 350]

Didn't Maltby score 50 goals in Jrs??

[kickazz 5,459]

On 11/24/2017 at 7:29 AM, krsmith17 said:

Nice trolling Euro_Twins...

I don't think anyone would say that Sheahan would be close to a 50 goal scorer, but I'd definitely hear an argument that he could have been better if handled differently. Whoever argued that would obviously be wrong though, and there would be people here that would argue that opinion for years and years, because Holland and Babcock / Blashill are perfect. They could never do any wrong, especially when it comes to player development... They're professionals. What do us as fans know... NOTHING!

Nice troll post. I see the flame bait loud and clear. Nobody take the bait! 

Edited November 28, 2017 by kickazz

[chaps80 1,591]

Sheehan/Wilson trade did nothing for either team thus far (as far as those two go). Opening cap for AA (main reason for the deal) and upgrading draft picks still leaves Holland the clear winner.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Good trade to clear cap space, and get a better pick, but Wilson blows. I'd play Booth over him every game, and even consider Witkowski over him at this point.

[lomekian 201]

Can't quiet get a handle on Wilson...he seems quick and smart and ok at everything, but has no impact. He's the kind of guy who on a stacked team could randomly put of 40-50 points one year, get a big contract and then fall off a cliff. 

[krsmith17 7,191]

16 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

He is NOT Gustav Nyquist.

 

 

(Ouch)

Nyquist has and will continue to be once again this season, a 40-50 point player. He hasn't fallen off a cliff...