Cholowski playing really well

[kickazz 5,459]

1 hour ago, toby91_ca said:

I actually wasn't nitpicking at all here....difference between 19.6 years old and 18 years old is massive.

Go look at a bunch of players that played in junior for 3 or years and check their production difference from 18 to 19 years old.  I'd be you'll see a lot increase production 50+ % in that one year and the difference we are talking about is closer to 2 years than it is to 1.

I've seen it, over and over and over again.  The quick and easy example is Mantha...at 18 he scored 89 points in 67 games, at 19, he scored 120 points in 57 games.....increased his production by 59%.

I'm not saying it's always like this, but it's quite ordinary.  It's hard to do this by looking at the good NHL players because most of them never play in junior by the time they are 19.  The best of the best are in the NHL a year earlier, the good players may stay back a year in junior, but for the most part, it's rare to play in junior 2 years after draft age for guys that ultimately become NHL stars.

You’re saying to look at certain players who played in juniors and see how their production increased between age 18 to 19 and concluding it must be because of age. I’m not sure if I agree with that. Looking at the top 10 currently - 3 of the top 10 scorers in the entire WHL were 18 when they started this season. 

2 of the top 10 defensive scorers were 17 when they started the season and both are still beating Cholowski in points.

Looking at the best WHL players your theory doesn’t really hold weight since 17 and 18 year olds are outplaying some of the 19, 20 year olds.

Which leads me to believe that experience in the league and personal skill level is what’s contributing to success between the 18 and 19 year olds (bear in mind some of those 17 year olds still havent turned 18). 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by kickazz

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

13 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

And this is why I'm not impressed with the kid...Yeah - sure - I hope I'm wrong, but at age 19 - many 'quality' prospects are in the AHL.

He can't go to the ahl until after this season. Or he can join the griffins for a playoff run if his season ends sooner. 

 

There is an agreement in place between the NHL and the CHL (Canadian Hockey League, the overarching organization beneath which stand the OHL, the WHL, and the QMJHL) which exists primarily to protect the CHL. The rule is as follows:

Players drafted and playing for CHL teams are ineligible to play in the professional minor leagues (AHL, ECHL) until they are 20 years old (by December 31st of that year) or have completed four years in major juniors.

[HockeytownRules19 902]

He was traded to the Portland Winterhawks

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, HockeytownRules19 said:

He was traded to the Portland Winterhawks

That sucks. Portland is a terrible place.

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That sucks. Portland is a terrible place.

I'm starting think you're not a hipster.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

6 minutes ago, PavelValerievichDatsyuk said:

I'm starting think you're not a hipster.

I can be hip

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

1 hour ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

That sucks. Portland is a terrible place.

That's why they send all of the terrible defensemen there. Especially the ones who who don't score enough points.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[toby91_ca 620]

18 hours ago, kickazz said:

You’re saying to look at certain players who played in juniors and see how their production increased between age 18 to 19 and concluding it must be because of age. I’m not sure if I agree with that. Looking at the top 10 currently - 3 of the top 10 scorers in the entire WHL were 18 when they started this season. 

2 of the top 10 defensive scorers were 17 when they started the season and both are still beating Cholowski in points.

Looking at the best WHL players your theory doesn’t really hold weight since 17 and 18 year olds are outplaying some of the 19, 20 year olds.

Which leads me to believe that experience in the league and personal skill level is what’s contributing to success between the 18 and 19 year olds (bear in mind some of those 17 year olds still havent turned 18). 

 

 

You're absolutely right, most of the best players in the league are normally the younger guys, but that's not because they are younger, it's because they are the better talents.....those best players won't be around at 19 and 20 years old.....that's my main point....if a guy is in juniors at that age, he's probably not that great.  Doesn't mean he won't progress, but that's just my assumption at that point in time.

[Euro_Twins 4,485]

1 hour ago, toby91_ca said:

You're absolutely right, most of the best players in the league are normally the younger guys, but that's not because they are younger, it's because they are the better talents.....those best players won't be around at 19 and 20 years old.....that's my main point....if a guy is in juniors at that age, he's probably not that great.  Doesn't mean he won't progress, but that's just my assumption at that point in time.

Yes but because of the chl, nhl agreement players like cholowski who were drafted can't go to the ahl until they turn 20, or turn 20 by December 31 of that season. 

[Keep Your Stick On the Ice 67]

This thread...

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

51 minutes ago, Keep Your Stick On the Ice said:

This thread...

Worst case ontario, we got another Brendan Smith

[Jacksoni 418]

Looking at Cholowski as a defenseman myself he's probably our best young defensive prospect in some time.

Cholowski thinks the game. Everything seems to go slower and/or more deliberate when he has the puck. This is not bad. His play speed will pick up. But he's starting from the right spot and has some of the tools the greats had.

Some of our top players were cerebral players doubting if they could possibly keep up with the speed of the NHL, noticeably Zetterberg and of course 'The perfect human', Lidström.

My bet is Cholowski will adjust and be a legit two-way top 4 defenseman on the Wings.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Jacksoni

[krsmith17 7,191]

2 hours ago, Euro_Twins said:

Yes but because of the chl, nhl agreement players like cholowski who were drafted can't go to the ahl until they turn 20, or turn 20 by December 31 of that season. 

Cholowski could have played in the AHL this season though, but he can't now until his season ends (Portland gets eliminated from the playoffs). He was drafted by Prince George, but originally decided to go the college route rather than Canadian juniors. Since he was not in the CHL when he was drafted by the Wings, he had the option to go straight to the AHL as early as last season. He wasn't ready, and I'm okay with that. Everyone develops at different rates, and Cholo has taken huge strides since being drafted. I'm excited for this kid, and hopeful that he can develop into a top pair defenseman some day. I don't think there's any question he'll be an NHL defenseman, it's just a matter of whether or not he hits his ceiling.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Cholowski could have played in the AHL this season though, but he can't now until his season ends (Portland gets eliminated from the playoffs). He was drafted by Prince George, but originally decided to go the college route rather than Canadian juniors. Since he was not in the CHL when he was drafted by the Wings, he had the option to go straight to the AHL as early as last season. He wasn't ready, and I'm okay with that. Everyone develops at different rates, and Cholo has taken huge strides since being drafted. I'm excited for this kid, and hopeful that he can develop into a top pair defenseman some day. I don't think there's any question he'll be an NHL defenseman, it's just a matter of whether or not he hits his ceiling.

I'll buy that chicken when it hatches

[kipwinger 8,756]

This is kind of a silly debate.   Two defenseman draftedhigher than Cholowski are also still playing in Juniors and are having worse seasons.   There's nothing really unusual about his being in juniors this year,  not in his having a good but not spectacular season.   It's pretty typical. All it really tells you about Cholowski is that he's probably not better, right now,  than Charlie McAvoy is.   He's not behind many of his peers at all. 

[Shaman 713]

4 hours ago, Jacksoni said:

Looking at Cholowski as a defenseman myself he's probably our best young defensive prospect in some time.

Cholowski thinks the game. Everything seems to go slower and/or more deliberate when he has the puck. This is not bad. His play speed will pick up. But he's starting from the right spot and has some of the tools the greats had.

Some of our top players were cerebral players doubting if they could possibly keep up with the speed of the NHL, noticeably Zetterberg and of course 'The perfect human', Lidström.

My bet is Cholowski will adjust and be a legit two-way top 4 defenseman on the Wings.

 

Him and Ras are both cases of players we will know nothing about until they make the AHL/NHL. Men, especially those with man sized bodies at 18-19 tend to dominate the CHL +1/+2 draft because they are men playing against kids. From my own experience the best predictor is how they transition to the AHL. So with both Cholo and Ras all I ever say is that they aren't showing negative signs in their development.

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

6 hours ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Worst case ontario, we got another Brendan Smith

Are you referring to Toronto?

3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

Cholowski could have played in the AHL this season though, but he can't now until his season ends (Portland gets eliminated from the playoffs). He was drafted by Prince George, but originally decided to go the college route rather than Canadian juniors. Since he was not in the CHL when he was drafted by the Wings, he had the option to go straight to the AHL as early as last season. He wasn't ready, and I'm okay with that. Everyone develops at different rates, and Cholo has taken huge strides since being drafted. I'm excited for this kid, and hopeful that he can develop into a top pair defenseman some day. I don't think there's any question he'll be an NHL defenseman, it's just a matter of whether or not he hits his ceiling.

If this is the case, then this changes things a bit for me.I was under the impression that he couldnt play in GR. But I'm still optimistic.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Neomaxizoomdweebie

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

Didn't want to start a new thread for this, so screw it, it can go here...

Ryan Martin Updates On Prospects

Long read

 

[HockeytownRules19 902]

2 assists and +4 in his 1st 3 games for Portland

 

40 games 13 goals 28 assists 41 points +13

[AtlantaHotWings 1,126]

On 1/12/2018 at 1:02 PM, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Didn't want to start a new thread for this, so screw it, it can go here...

Ryan Martin Updates On Prospects

Long read

 

This sentence from the article made me laugh...

     "I don't want to say just a checker, I don't mean it in that sense but Kirk Maltby had 50 goals when he played junior and people that didn't see him play junior might not know that. "

If you EVER watched a game when Maltby played it was mentioned a FEW times he was  50 goal scorer in juniors. ..... 

 

[Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083]

12 hours ago, AtlantaHotWings said:

This sentence from the article made me laugh...

     "I don't want to say just a checker, I don't mean it in that sense but Kirk Maltby had 50 goals when he played junior and people that didn't see him play junior might not know that. "

If you EVER watched a game when Maltby played it was mentioned a FEW times he was  50 goal scorer in juniors. ..... 

 

Yeah that and "Detroit got Draper for a dollar." It was the go-to for all the national commentators when they had nothing else.

[ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022]

On 1/15/2018 at 9:48 PM, Neomaxizoomdweebie said:

Yeah that and "Detroit got Draper for a dollar." It was the go-to for all the national commentators when they had nothing else.

Yeah those two and "Andreas sexy Lilja's presence on the blue line really keeps the flies off"

[HockeytownRules19 902]

2 Power Play Assists last night in a 4-2 Loss... Was -2

 

Portland... 4 GP 0 G 4 A 4 PTS +2

Total... 41 GP 13 G 30 A 43 PTS +11

[toby91_ca 620]

On 1/15/2018 at 12:32 PM, AtlantaHotWings said:

This sentence from the article made me laugh...

     "I don't want to say just a checker, I don't mean it in that sense but Kirk Maltby had 50 goals when he played junior and people that didn't see him play junior might not know that. "

If you EVER watched a game when Maltby played it was mentioned a FEW times he was  50 goal scorer in juniors. ..... 

 

The reality is, there are a lot of players in junior that are very skilled a high scoring players in the context of the rest of the group they are playing with, but they aren't skilled enough to move on to the NHL and be good scorers.  Those guys can go 1 of two ways, 1) adapt their game and see if they can make it in a different role (e.g. Maltby) or 2) don't end up pursuing the NHL.

I laugh every time I hear about Maltby scoring 50 goals in junior though....to put it in perspective, here are some data points - from that same year, same league (16 teams):

 - 27 players scored at least 45 goals or 90 points

 - Maltby had 50 goals and 91 points

 - Darren McCarty had 55 goals and 127 points

 - 2 others were Corey Stillman and Andrew Brunette, who each went on to play over 1,000 games in the NHL and score more than 700pts

 - 7 of those players combined to average 19 goals and 43 points over their entire NHL careers

 - 16 - never played a shift in the NHL, which included the leading scorer who had 146 points 

[HockeytownRules19 902]

2 more assists last night in a 5-3 loss, was also -1, but was supposedly the best player on the ice for Portland