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Here's what really irks me - people debate the labor dispute and complain about how hockey is being taken from them and, oh, the poor arena workers and all the jobs being affected... Then they turn around and say: "if there's a lockout, I won't ever watch hockey or pay a dime to the NHL again". Aren't those positions antithetical? Aren't you harming the sport, the players, and the workers just to get back at Bettman and the owners? While also depriving yourself of the greatest sport on Earth? I put this almost all on the owners and Bettman. But I'll be back. And so will you. Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll still support the NHL after this. Still gonna buy merchandise, try to see games, pay for center ice. Being mad at the league as a whole hasn't clouded my memory enough to forget that I love hockey a lot. Hockey fans spend a lot of time saying "i'll stop watching if _______ occurs" but I won't ever actually stop until the game stops being exciting for me (so I'll be around at least as long as Datsyuk plays) When hockey is back, I'll be waiting...if not impatiently

The players are guilty of being greedy in their own right, but I can't be more upset with them than I am with the league. This league got what it wanted with the cap and player reduction of salaries, saving owners and the league liability of writing out and signing contracts they can't maintain. Now things have come full circle.. once again. I gave the league the benefit of the doubt in the first lockout I was involved in, in the mid 90s, and again following the loss of a full season last decade, but that's all gone now. The fact that the PA and NHL haven't met for s*** over the last year or so, then haven't really met in the last two weeks before this, shows me they aren't serious. The fact that the league yesterday set a press conference to be held to announce the lockout later this week/weekend well ahead of this meeting with the PA shows how much pointless window dressing facade garbage this meeting is, and that neither side are serious about getting this done for the one forgotten aspect of this lockout hurt the most by this -- the fans and those employed by the league. The league isn't concerned about fans at all, and for that, I lack concern for the NHL and when they finally decide to bring back their league from this bulls***. In all likelihood, I won't watch the NHL for a long time, if ever again, and certainly won't be spending a penny of my own money buying merchandise. There's no sense of being a fan of a league that so frequently, along with it's players association, gives us the finger. This likely lockout is also by the same odds a long goodbye from the forums as my disgust with the NHL has my interest virtually zero, which is why I haven't discussed hockey much at all over the last several months. I still hold out hoping some miracle will happen, but both the league and PA already have a pre-emptive intent on going through with the lockout so here's my pre-emptive post walking out on the NHL and related forums.

Something something kicked the tires, something something price wasn't right something something....

Whoops, forgot about that. Here's another idea guys...we kidnap Sid and hold him hostage until Bettman agrees to stop the lockout nonsense/retire. Who's in?

And lots of leg room and space to spread out...

The Wings had a goalie that was better than the defense? Has there ever been besides Sawchuk? I keep trying to think of a goalie that kept the Wings alive through out a entire season. Like a elite goalie type. I'm drawing blanks besides Dom in 02', but he had great d-man in front of him. I'm thinking that's going to be the case this year. Our goalie depth is a greater strength than our d-man depth and Jimmy H. is going to shine.

This is why the lockout usually works. It boils down to who can do without the money the longest, which is usually the owners. Sure players can go to other leagues and get paid, but most won't make what they made in the NHL. All the while the clock on their prime playing years keeps ticking away. They have the most to lose and the owners know it. esteef

So with 3 days left to negotiate, the NHL makes its final offer and gives an ultimatum. If Bettman ever wonders why he always gets booed, he's got his answer.

Whew, see, there you go! Glad we got that misconception cleared up, but it does make you wonder what percentage of people dumping on Holland this offseason is based on outright inaccuracies or impossibilities. (Including, by the way, that there was any sales pitch or reasonable structuring of money that could've talked either Parise or Suter into playing for Detroit next year). Seriously, the pendulum has swung WAY too far in the opposite direction on Holland. Four Stanley Cups, turning super-talented players like Yzerman, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg into Winged Wheel "lifers", and pulling a Hossa signing out of a hat in a season when nobody even dreamed about it....and then one offseason of relative inactivity/bad luck and the man is absolute garbage. I don't get. The ONLY guy this offseason that I thought we could reasonably get and who seemed interested in playing here that disappointed me was Alex Semin. I was bummed to see him sign a short-term deal somewhere else, when it wasn't even certain if that was possible. But given what we know now about the lockout, and the fact that another major CBA shakeup (with possible revisions to the salary cap and even retroactive adjustments to contracts) seems very likely, I'm somewhat glad go around the free agent market making it rain. Are we as strong as we've been in recent years? No. Do I think we still have a very good team with quality players at goaltending, defense, and forward? Absolutely I do.

That is the problem, he is not an objective 3rd party. If he's going to continue to be part of the problem he needs to go. I understand this is a business and he's trying to do what's best for it, but you can't make any money when you are locking out your players. Seems like they are making an effort but the NHL is not budging, it doesn't work that way...

Relative to what the owners first proposal was, the union's first proposal should have been the elimination of a salary cap. Their first offer already was a large concession. It boggles the mind that in spite of making over a billion dollars more revenue in 7years, that ownership thinks this is the solution to the league's issues. Revenue has increased 50% in seven years! How many industries see that kind of growth?? While the union's proposal certainly isn't an end point for the CBA, it's based on the idea that the league will continue to make money, increase revenue and be successful, which is what Gary has been telling us for 7 years and what has happened for 7 years. What ownership is trying to sell fans on is that in spite of a 50% increase in revenue in 7 years, the players need to make massive concessions on salaries and contracts in order for franchises to be successful. That's bulls***.

I think more than an online petition, if you want to be heard it's probably more effective to write to the Red Wings organization directly and spell out all the money you've spent in the past and all the money you will no longer be spending on the NHL. You could copy the NHL on it, if they have any sort of address where they can actually hear from fans. It's still mostly of a symbolic gesture, but I think is more likely to be heard and taken seriously than an online petition. Then the key of course is for everyone to follow up on it and cancel tickets and not spend the money.

Phoenix: Greatest. Ownership. Ever.

They'll give a damn about it. In this thread alone, several posters have stated they have cancelled or will cancel their NHL Center Ice subscription. Thousands more will. When they realize the amount of money they're losing, they'll start to care. Don't go to games once they end the lockout. Don't visit NHL.com. We, the fans, are in charge. We're making them millionaires, and we can take that away at any time.

A big question mark. Kronwall has gone from being a #4 to an undisputed #1 in just 2 years - a huge step up. He was probably the best #4 in the league, but is he good enough to be a #1 and lead the D-corps? Now I wish he'd been given more (any?) time on the first pairing these last few years. Smith is still a rookie - a talented rookie, but a rookie nevertheless. Quincey, White, Ericsson can all be good 2nd pairing or bad 3rd pairing players depending on how well they perform. Kindl deserves to be in the AHL.

I think we will be okay to everyones' surprise. Why do I say this? Because the Red Wings best move of the summer has been bringing in Tom Renney as assistant coach for the Defense. He has a lot of experience working with younger players, and has a very good defensive approach to his system. When he was the coach of the NY Rangers, they played a very solid defense system, and had an outstanding penalty killing system. There were several times, back in 2008, when Mike Babcock praised Renney and his system and sometimes even had the boys watch tapes to help them out. So I think Renney will be a huge help. By no means am I saying that we will be just as good as years past, but we won't be as bad as everyone seems to think. I mean honestly, look at Jersey. Our dmen are way better then theirs, and they just came within 2 wins of a Stanley Cup. How about s***sburg? Their D is not that strong. Also, as someone said, we play a good TEAM defensive system. I guess we will have to wait and see, but I expect Babs and Renney will get things together.

It's not a bad lineup. Could be pretty good if Brunner turns into something special. But it's not, at this point, better than last year. About the same, I'd say. Still too many bottom 6 guys and not enough top line scorers.

Bottom-six is very good. Among the best units in hockey. Very solid combination of energy, skill and now some "sandpaper" (by Red Wings standards) on the 4th line. Depth plays such a huge role in the NHL and IMO the strongest part of the roster right now is the bottom-six. Top-six has had issues for years and hasn't improved at all. Zetterberg and Datsyuk are a year older, Filppula has to duplicate his strong season and Franzen will score close to 30 but lacks consistency and effort. The Red Wings have needed a legitimate goal-scoring winger since Hossa left. Bertuzzi and Samuelsson belong nowhere near one of the two top lines on a contending team. The alternatives are unproven players with upside at least, but minimal to no NHL experience. I really like Nyquist and feel his development is one of the most crucial factors in determining the Red Wings ceiling this season.

Yes I do! One has kitties on it. The person below me prefers Coke or Pepsi?

I want to kidnap them all, lock them in a room together with no food, water, or bathrooms, and place armed guards outside the door with instructions to not let anyone in or out until a signed CBA is in place. Every four hours a rabid skunk will be let into the room. Every 6 hours Celine Dion will serenade them with "My Heart Will Go On. " Every 8 hours they will have to watch "The Miracle of Birth. " Every 10 hours they will have to eat haggis.

I thought they had to amputate his leg after the Brown hit. At least that's what it sounded like based on the Yotes players comments. He wasn't anyone that was on my radar, but looking at the blueline right now, it sure wouldn't have hurt as a depth signing since we have none.

All professional sporting teams (NHL, NBA, MLB and NFL) in all cities made it. It's not the top 100, it list them all. I think the list is pretty irrelevent and it really doesn't relate at all to how good any of the teams are. There seems to be a pretty high rating on how expensive tickets are (which is why you see Phoenix high on the list and Toronto low on the list). I've seen these lists before and I just find them very weird. Essentially, they are trying to show where the best bang for you buck can be found. Generally speaking, teams in major cities will be handicapped because their tickets will be more expensive (generally), but you would also need to consider that the disposable income of people in those cities would be higher (generally).....so it's tough to compare.

They would get high marks under "Stadium Experience"; every home game might be the last one they play.

One avenue explored by the NHLPA hit a dead end; from Toronto Star: