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If one goalie starts the first 41 games of a season then another goalie starts the final 41 games of a season would you call it a tandem situation, or a situation where one goalie was initially labeled starter, then lost the job to the other goalie? Obviously this is an extreme example but it illustrates my point that you can't look at total games played between the two to label them as sharing the net or not. Mrazek started the season as number 1 and as he struggled the situation shifted from a clear starter/backup, to a tandem, and then back to a clear starter except with Howard as the number 1. And as a clear starter/backup situation, as most of the Mrazek passifists repeatedly said this season, yourself included (despite his awful play), the starting goalie should get the majority of starts if he's healthy and ready to go.

"Used Illitch's cash" "Gave Scotty what he wanted" "Inherited the '97 team" So basically, what many people are saying, is that there was no possible way Ken Holland could've received any credit for any team success during his tenure. So how do other GM's do it? Spend their own money? Refuse to discuss and consult with their coaches on current And future strategy/roster moves? It's nothing more than a loaded argument to place exclusive blame on KH for the current situation. Maybe he was too focused on the streak. He probably should've started the rebuild sooner. But to exclude him from any credit at all for at least 2 of the 4 cups is kinda ridiculous. Not many NHL teams have won 20% of the Stanley Cup s in a 20 year span. Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

What about his role in scouting? If Nill, Yzerman, and Andersson get credit for the Wings in '08, why does Holland get ZERO for '97?

You're really playing with numbers here. Its only 17-15 because Mrazek started the year as the starter meaning that of those 17 starts, like 9 were in the first 12 games. Then when you factor in the time Howard was hurt, its really not close to 50/50. Since Mrazek lost the starting job about a month into the season, Howard has been the bonafide starter while healthy.

Merry Christmas and happy Boxing Day for our Canadian friends. Enjoy the peace and love of the season!

Well, he has to be given the chance first. The guy came up from GR, stole a permanent roster spot and unseated the starter, earned a $4 million contract in one season of play, part of another, and 10 playoff games. He's got the talent to be one of the best in the game. Yeah, he's had troubles, but If he is to be the future of the team, he's not gonna do it from the bench. Now is the time to play the kids. More of a focus should be on development at this point, because this team is going nowhere. Coreau will play too, and i'm glad he will get NHL experience, because he's gonna be a damn good goalie as well.

I don't disagree that the last 8 years have been little more than a straight and narrow focus on a meaningless streak. And I also feel as though a front office shakeup could certainly do some good for this franchise. But I also feel as though some people are going way out of their way to place unwarranted blame. Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

Holland gets no/little credit because he wasn't GM. Andersson, Nill, and Yzerman get a lot of credit even though they weren't GM. Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

It did. Everyone who paid attention to the team at the time knew about it. It was talked about in all the media. The archives aren't all that great is all. Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

What I posted was that at some point Mrazek would get a chance to win the job back. Right now is that opportunity as he has 4-6 weeks to likely get 75% of the starts in that time frame. Lets see what he does with this opportunity.

Having a team that will be garbage for three years is a great way to build a fan base, right? Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

Playing his #1 goalie when he got back was the proper way to handle the situation. Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

1) Rumblings stated that Trouba wanted to come here, I dont see him wearing a Wings jersey. My point is that a player can want to go to any team, but a GM is the one that needs to trade for him. 2) I don't understand your point. Hen Holland wanted Luc Robitaille so therefore it doesn't count? 3) Again, Holland is the one who signed Hull and traded for Chelios. As far as them restructuring their contracts, link? I was not aware of this. I googled it and nothing came up.

Yeah I seem to recall reading that they automatically get a top 5 pick somewhere. Must be nice to buy a franchise, pillage other teams players, and get a high first rounder. I find the amount of players allowed to be protected by each team, who spent years drafting and developing and building their roster, to be much too low as well. What is it..10-12 players total or something? I think expansion teams should have to find and sign their own players. There's tons of non-NHL pro players out there, plus unsigned UFA's. And then there's the high first rounder to help out too. Yeah sure, your team will suck for awhile, but that's how it should be. It shouldn't be instantly competitive just because you put down the expansion fee and built an arena.

Sources..

What exactly are you basing that on? Anything?? Or are you just making stuff up like you usually do?

Well if we want to be honest here: 1. Hasek traded himself to Detroit. 2. KH wanted Luc Robitaille. 3. Brett Hull was signed thanks to Yzerman, Shanahan et Chelios given the fact that they have put a pressure on KH and they even re-structured their contracts to give money to KH.

Holland did not build the 97,98, 02 teams. He did what Bowman told him to do. That being said Holland was very good at his job during that period of time. We won Cups and that is all that matters. He has had a HOF career. The questions about Holland in my mind come during the Cap era were he has been subpar. We haven't drafted well over the last 15 years, very few trades in total and none for impact players, very few impact UFA signings, and he has resigned far too many players to big money contracts that are not worth it. For example this is going to happen. Tatar is a RFA this summer. Does anyone think Holland will overpay to resign him? I do. I fully expect Tatar to get a 4+ year deal with an average cap hit of 4.5 million or more. At that point we will have 3 F's making a combined 12+ million that combined can't score 40 goals. (tatar, nyquist, and Helm). It is time for Holland to retire and take his place in the HOF so we as a team can move on and hopefully upward.

Holland did a lot of the GM duties before officially becoming GM so Bowman could focus on coaching and things like painting locker rooms and complaining about short benches. Saying he doesn't get credit for helping build those teams is ludicrous. So is the argument that he bought any Cups. Other teams spent a ton of cash too, and did nothing. For a good stretch he was the best GM in the NHL. He's slipped though. I don't know if he got complacent, has people above him interfering with him and telling him to do things he doesn't think will work, or if he really believes that the best way to build a team is to sign a bunch of mediocre at best players to 4+ years. Regardless of the reason, he's done a bad job the last few years. Yes, every team goes through bad stretches, and the nature of pro sports is that no team stays on top forever, but his refusal to do a full rebuild is doing nothing but delay them from getting back to the top by extending the mediocre period.

As a GM the guy is in over his head, he never had to do a rebuild so I'm not blaming him for that. Holland should have handed the keys over to the captain, move up as a VP and do this thing the right way after Wings failed to land Suter. Wings need elite prospects to get this team into the next area, right now there are some solid and hopefully 2 very good ones in Mantha and Larkin (also the highest picks). But to get the elite ones a team needs to be bad draft and develop them. It's the current system and until the next cba there is no way around it.

I think its funny that a ton of fans heap praise towards our scouts and guys like Nill and Yzerman during their time in the front office, but then Holland gets 0 cred for the 97 cup? Hadnt he been scouting for us for a while already? Due to the fact that he was promoted he was probably responible for drafting a lot of our best players in the 90s. Guy deserves cred for all our cups post dead wings. What's interesting to me is what Holland does with a (hopefully not) non playoff team. He was handed a tier 1 team the day he became GM, and he managed to continually retool that team and achieve championships and po success despite massive league changes to the way the game is played and to the way the business is run (he deserves godly amounts of praise for this IMO its unheard of in most sports and especially in hockey with the massive amount of evolution weve undergone). But 2010 to now has seen us in slow decline. And if we dont make the post season im very intrigued by what he will do. Despite his many years he has no expierence in this situation, and im freightened that he may not adapt. Personally thou i believe we must give him the chance to rebuild this franchise for at least a few years b4 a firing occurs. He is a great hockey mind afterall and i want to see him operate in a new situation b4 hes canned for being too old school. However i see the otherside of the coin too. Hes had 5+ years to retool us and couldnt. Hes lost touch. Hes also handed out the NTCs that will prevent us from a proper rebuilding. But still i feel he deserves the chance to try. His leadership of this team has given me many great memories and has made me a hockey fan for life. Ill follow this team to the gates of mordor itself. We have fallen into strange times. May the hockey gods have mercy on our souls. Merry christmas wing nerds

Just tossing this one back up here.

Again, I must dispute the whole "bought the Cup" theory. Buying the Cup means you gave up nothing and just threw a butt ton of cash at all the top F/A's in order to bring them in to win it all. Let's break it down from the playoff team: Yzerman - DRAFTED Shanahan - TRADED for Coffey, Primeau, 1st round pick Fedorov - DRAFTED Hull - Signed on August 22nd, 2001, nearly THREE months after any other team could've signed him. Lets note that he took less to come here. His own team didn't want him back, nether did St. Louis. Lidstrom - DRAFTED Chelios - TRADED for Eriksson and TWO 1st round picks Holmstrom - DRAFTED Robitaille - SIGNED July 5th, 2001, 4 days after UFA started and only after they lost Lapointe. The Kings told him they weren't interested in his services anymore, or he would have re-signed there. McCarty - DRAFTED Datsyuk - DRAFTED Fischer - DRAFTED Maltby - TRADED for (basically thrown aside by Edmonton) Dan McGillis in 1996 Devereaux - SIGNED as UFA on AUGUST 23, 2000. Again nearly 3 months after all other teams could've signed him. Including his own. Another Edmonton cast off. Olausson - SIGNED as UFA May 24th, 2001 out the Swiss league. Duchesne - SIGNED as UFA September 3, 1999 a whole 3 months after anyone else could've signed him. Including his team Philly. Larionov - TRADED for Ray Sheppard Oct. 24th, 1995 one of our LAST 50 goal scoerer's on this team (52 in 1994) plus he scored 30 goals in the 43 game shortened season before he was dealt. No exactly table scraps. TRADED for Golubovsky from Florida in 2000 after he left UFA that summer. So basically we traded Ray Sheppard and Yan Golubovsky to get Larionov. Draper - TRADED for ONE Canadian dollar, basically thrown in the garbage by Winnipeg June 30, 1993. Dandenault - DRAFTED Hasek - TRADED for Kozlov and a 1st round pick July 1, 2001. Krupp - Lets just forget this UFA signing, he only played 2 games anyhow Legace - Claimed of WAIVERS from Vancouver (Oct. 1999.) Who claimed him from us off waivers (Sept. 1999,) after we signed him as a career minor league UFA in August 1999. Slegr - TRADED for Butsayev and a 2nd round pick from Atlanta at the 2002 deadline. Williams - Signed as UFA in September 2000. Honestly that is really not buying The Cup as basically defined by "buying" a Championship, when you are signing players nobody else wanted and giving up multiple assets to acquire players. Plus using your drafted players. I laugh when other fans say that Cup was bought.