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1. Leino was released in order to free up cap/roster for Franzen's return. 2. Holmstrom is a specialist that is the very best at what he does. 3. He can still score goals, 25 goals for under 2 million is an absolutely great deal. 4. You can not pay too much for a player like Lidstrom, especially when you aren't talking 8-10 million. Before last year I was in the same boat as you, I didn't think Homer had a place in the top 6 due to his skating ability. But he clearly proved me wrong last year on his way to being the second leading scorer. Lastly Steve Yzerman over Ken Holland? Damn I've probably replied to a troll. Oh well.

I will certainly never forget. http://espn.go.com/blog/sportscenter/post/_/id/57110/this-day-in-sports-the-stanley-cup-returns-to-motor-city

Holmstrom is a warrior. The Demolition Man. And he is one of the keys to Detroit's success over the years. There is no one better at what he does. NO ONE>>ANYWHERE. Period. He deserves to retire a Wing.

sheesh... imagine if that never happened and Jiri never had the heart attack... that could have been the most epic blueline in NHL history... Early 2000's... just the top 4 alone that could have been... Lidstrom-Konstantinov Fischer-Chelios sheesh...

Sorry, just getting bored of all this awesome 4th line grinder and 6/7th D-Man stuff My link Gah, mod, can you edit my title, I got too type happy!

Also took a s*** ton less to come here as well fellas. I realize he just bounces to winners that eventually go on to lose the Finals but, we were all singing a different tune when we got him. Especially when he played the way he did throughout the season and I saw crazy mofo's donning his jersey even though we knew it was for 1 and done, and even the way he was going in the Chicago series right before the Finals. I was at game 5 in the WCF and the guy was pretty close to unstoppable. I think we should all just take it easy on the Hossa hate. I am not a slappy here and I loathe Chicago but there is really nothing in here that has made a ton of sense to do one of these if he loses another. The overall consensus to me would make more sense to do one of these if Chicago was to lose out on another. The Hossa part would just make an amazing story that's all. No real gratification comes from it.

I miss Vladdy and I miss 90's hockey.

Loss of words then. Loss of words today.

The Flyers actually have a good team on paper. Two great scoring lines + Giroux, great checkers all around, and pretty solid top 4 defensemen. They're weak in net, but Chicago hardly has a big name back there themselves. I do think Chicago has a bit more scoring depth, but Philly has a pretty loaded team on paper, thus the series should be close, contrary to what you say.

A tougher player can only rub off on the rest of the team. It helps to have a guy that can energize the team with some big hits and can stand up for players when need be. You want your team to have all the dimensions and be well rounded. I don't see how that player can hurt the team, unless he takes stupid penalties all the time. However, that depeneds on the particular player, so it's unfair to stereotype that against fighters in general. As for offensive production, once again, that depends on the player. It doesn't hurt to have 4th liners that can score, but if they're soft and don't know how to check (Williams), then they don't help on the 4th line no matter how much they can score. 4th line is for energy and hitting first and foremost. Scoring is secondary when it comes to choosing a tough guy. We don't need our enforcer to play on the top line after all.

The sheer fact we are discussing trading Cleary in this Bert thread just baffles me and LGW never ceases to amaze with the amount of ass hats that sign in here everyday to say this. The man fought through a torn meniscus which everyone condemns him for and some think thats just sheer Cleary warrior stuff. I am of the latter thinking this guy would die for the Wings on the ice. You NEVER get rid of guys that carry this much respect in the locker room and you NEVER forget what this guy has done during both Cup runs. Clears will be back at 100% and for most thats still not enough but for me that gets me pumped. IF Bert will sign for the right price bring him back. If he retires get somebody else then, I am ok either way. But give up the Cleary bashing....

Do I need to start going to the B.O.B. and to 25 downtown once Smith comes to town to ensure that he's not doing stupid s***? I'll brave all the flat-billed caps, popped collars and spray tans if I have to.

I don't get it. GMs and other members of management ask for permission to speak to other team's personnel. If you really want someone, that's what you have to do. It would such if you had to simply accept who's out there, out of job and looking. People ask for permission to speak to certain people all the time, sometimes the team says no, sometimes they say yes. Do I have this correct...some people on here are okay with other GMs doing this with the wings, but not Steve? Makes no sense. He needs to fill positions, he can speak to the other 28 teams, but not the Wings? That's just stupid.

First, I'll apologize if I'm wrong about the Euro-hate. Seems every post of yours lately speaks critically of Holland targeting 'small, skilled Euros'. I'm sure you can understand how that can be miscontrued. But Holland does not target 'small' players. He targets skilled players. More specifically, skilled two-way players. Big or small doesn't much matter. The main reason many of them are smaller is because that's all that's usually left in the later rounds. Guys like Franzen, Kopy, Ericsson, Kindl, etc. are all on the big side. Nor does Holland really target Euros. Just with the strength of our European scouts and our typical position in the draft, he feels we'll be more successful with those picks. And it's hard to argue with our track record. Also, Pavelski is exactly the type of player that Holland does typically target. Just one that we happened to miss out on. Since he doesn't fit your argument, it really just looks like you're cherry-picking to fuel some anti-Euro agenda. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it comes off to me. Furthermore, I think you're confusing Holland saying he wants to add some grit and/or size with a desire to add all grit and/or size. And also cherry-picking again to overlook cases where he has picked up gritty players. Bertuzzi and May this year. Abdelkader, Stuart, Downey, Drake (not big, but gritty), Shawn Matthias, Nick Oslund, Julien Cuyer, Brian Lashoff, Landon Ferraro (like Drake, not very big, but fiesty). I'm sure there's more.

Do you even have any idea who those people are? You say we shouldn't draft small, skilled players, then say we made a mistake passing up Pavelski...a small (medium anyway), skilled player. For the record, Blom is similar size and Kollar is bigger (though not borderline obese like Buffy). I know you're a staunch Euro hater, but to pick out a couple late round picks that happened to be successful for other teams is a retarded stretch. Completely ignoring the other hundred or so players that would fit your mold who also never made it to the NHL. Man, if only we'd picked Vince Malts and Chris Hartsburg instead of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. We've had a lot of success in Pav, Hank, Fischer, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Helm, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Ericsson, Howard, and now we should see Ritola and Kindl. Kopecky, Fleischman, Meech, and Quincey were also drafted by Holland. We also have a few decent prospects still in the system. But you want to cry that we don't hit home runs with every 4th round and later pick. You realize that on average only about 12% of players picked in the third round or later play more than a few NHL games. 25% or so for the 2nd round, 65% for the first round. The Wings have had 8 (possibly 9) out of 63 3rd round or later picks from 1998-2006 become regular NHLers. 5 of the 11 2nd rounders have made it (and 4 of those 11 were picked later than 60th, so really 3rd rounders), 1 of 3 1st rounders (with Kindl now a second possiblilty). That's a pretty good record.

He came to a winning roster in Detroit saying that he wanted to win a cup. He took large amounts of money, and used top line minutes and couldn't produce. Maybe he wanted us to carry him to a cup. Or maybe he just sucks. Either way, he's a leach. Yes, he wasn't terrible. But we had just won the cup and he wanted one. Our roster was fine. I don't hold him solely responsible. But I sure as hell don't like him. And for 7.4 million you'd damn well better do more than "look good". For that sort of money and top line ice time you'd better be scoring. And for anyone who says he was injured, he got 40 goals during the year with the same injury. He had the injury all year. Besides, this year's playoffs just confirm it. He's sucking it up again.

Yeah, whoever they get, they need someone similar to Lilja, but ideally nastier and more physical around his own net. Lillypads is big, but we need a guy who will punish players around the Detroit crease. right now no one in the Wings lineup does that.

Yeah, with Kindl and Ericsson on the team we have more than enough big players who don't use their size consistently.

Well, let's see... Three Stanley Cups, Conn Smythe award, NHL All-Rookie team, Lester B. Pearson award, Selke Trophy, Masterton Trophy, Lester Patrick Trophy, 9 time NHL All Star, 692 goals, 1063 assists, and is the longest serving team captain in NHL history. Vs. Signing one of our pro scouts, and asking to speak to our "capologist". That's it. Break out the torches and pitchforks.

That first reply was idiotic haha. Mmmmm, higher viewership yield more sponsorship and TV revenue yielding a higher cap =) KUTGW Bettman. Illitch loves spending money Except most major cities and the growing urban and poverty stricken cities in America.

That's good news. Funny how espn sporstwriters (idiots) are always blabbing about how no one cares about hockey, especially with Crosby/Ovechkin not in the Finals. Yet they make it sound like everyone cares about their overhyped, overrated NBA playoffs.

Unsurprising. Pittsburgh is not a big market. Amongst other things, this makes very silly Bettman's concerted attempts to push the team.

I'm from Chicago, and I can't stand all these f***in Fair Weather fans, and I hope that the Goat, Hossa chokes again. If he would of shown up for us, we would have Back to Back Cups! And go eat a Fat Burger, Thuglien.

hossa can go die and lose in the finals for the third year in a row

Leino, i don't have any judgements on what type of person leino is in the real world, but hossa jumping ship so many times pisses me off flyers can definately beat the shark, richards,carter,briere,gagne, have tones of heart, and the flyer do have depth and play hard. They never give up, its gonna be about who wants it the most. Hossa needs to have ice in his veins, something that he didnt have against pittsburgh. Its like he cudnt back stab is old team for some reason, ***.