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If Probert was playing now (and clean, if he was doing the crap he did back then now he'd never make it) coaches wouldn't want him to fight much. He had enough talent that they'd want him on the ice, not in the box. And zero playoff games. Mark Hartigan played 4 games that run. Downey had zero influence on the Wings winning the Cup that year.

I'm just saying that I'll take a meathead if we can't get a fighter with talent (which I know we won't). Enforcer may be on the bottom of the list, but the top of the list isn't something Holland seems to be able to realistically address. He doesn't have any sway over free agents anymore and neither does the organization. We're not going to obtain a top 6 winger or a top pair defenseman, so what's the use wishing for the impossible. Getting a tough guy would be easy and cheap.

Um, if they're such a valuable commodity, why does no one want them and why are they all on waivers? It isn't 1987 anymore. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

How exactly are you going to upgrade your special teams, puck movement from the back end, scoring depth, or shoddy goaltending with "toughness"? The kinds of guys that Ryan Barnes is arguing for (e.g. goons) don't play special teams, don't move the puck well, don't limit shots on the goalie, and don't provide scoring depth. They maybe...maybe...could help keep other guys healthy...maybe. But that's it. This whole argument that we've been bad because we're not "tough enough" completely overlooks the fact that there are a lot of SERIOUS problems with our team that have nothing to do "toughness". Fortunately many of the problems outlined above are resolved by adding Nyquist, Jurco, Tatar, Mantha, Ouellet, Sproul, and Marchenko (none of whom are goons, but all of whom are skilled) and removing/demoting Kindl, Lashoff, Quincey, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, etc (some of whom are tough, none of whom are skilled). By adding more skill, our real problems are likely to get solved. By adding goons you solve zero real problems and only address this "toughness" deficiency which isn't really tied to anything tangible anyway.

I don't get it TSN has had such an informative and well organized site. Yeah, you want a more modern look but why not keep the great structure instead of throwing the whole concept over board and thencreate something where nobody knows, how to find stuff ?! i.e. Podcasts, Season Preview... Also please stop that stupid "load more" button and add SITE numbers seriously how difficult is that ? Even I could code that. Now the site looks "modern" but more like a mobile unorganized site...disappointed. If somebody knows where to find the podcasts etc. please link them

Lashoff is fine as a 7th d-man, but nothing more. He really shouldn't be playing as many games as he has in previous seasons. I don't believe Babs needs to call out Kindl. It doesn't seem very logical though to deem Kindl's job as safe given his performance and the fact the Wings have prospects ready to make the jump. I don't think we really need to see more games from Kindl. He's 27 and had plenty of opportunity already to establish himself in the league. If Ouellet is a better option on October 9th (which appears very likely) then there's no reason not to have Ouellet take Kindl's job. The Wings defense is weak and any chance to upgrade should be taken immediately. Babs makes this bizarre statement that his two worst d-men aren't at risk, which is basically stating we are going to try the same thing on defense again and expect different results. I just want the best players on the ice. Not eventually either because as we seen last season, our prospects have the ability to generally hold their own. Again, I do believe Sproul and Backman need more time in Grand Rapids, but Ouellet would be fine on the third pairing and so would a healthy Marchenko.

You're definitely stretching my words with the magic cure comment. I do think that playing with Zetterberg and Datsyuk will help out Helm more than Miller and Abdelkader and whoever else he usually plays with. Filppula had his career year when he was moved to Zetterberg's wing. Don't argue that Helm isn't Filppula, i know, i know. The point is it often helps centermen production when they switch to wing and don't have all the same defensive responsibility. It does depend on how they make the transition, but I don't see it as that likely that Helm won't be able to play wing. I don't know about the boner comment, Helm was relegated to the 4th line last year. He's too good for the 4th line. We've got too many centers - not enough elite wingers. Like i said twice, i just think it's worth a shot.

regarding Helm....you guys all laughed at me when I stated last season that a trainer in the staff behind the scenes had told a guy I work with that he plays pick up hockey with(ya ya, I know how that sounds) that he is a wuss and will sit with a hang nail. We are seeing it again. This guy is made of balsa wood and he should have been traded over the summer...of course teams also probably knows he is a wuss...

I'll be there, I will post after the game how everyone looked

Again, you're perpetuating a lot of myths with no actual facts behind them. What top 6 Wingers were available in free agency this season that Holland missed out on? Ehrhoff signed with a better team? Really, the team that just fired its General Manager and coach, lost their top defenseman and has a major problem in net? That team? You can say their two top stars are younger than ours, but that's about it. He also only signed a one year deal if I'm not mistaken, so that tells you that there's something more in the works. Please name some names of all these top free agents that the Wings could pick and choose from that lined up to come here for next to nothing. That's laughable. We signed Hull and Robitaille in 2002 for probably more than they'd get anywhere else, but who were all the other stars that came here via free agency? As we've been over ad nauseum, the very small crop of free agents that do become available today are more apt to sign with teams because of family/friend reasons. Also, who are all these prime destinations that these players are signing to go to. Washington? Minnesota? Columbus? There's no evidence whatsoever that having an "enforcer" reduces injuries. Since every other team is tougher than the Wings, that would mean that all the other teams would have minimal injuries. That just isn't the case.

Keeping the other team honest can be correlated to less injuries. Hockey is a physical sport there is no way to 100 % prevent injuries but there are ways to force the other team to clean their act up. One of them is to finally get a another Downey, DMac to take care of business. Yes it's easy and cheap, yet it hasn't been done since our last cup (needless to say the Wings haven't one anything since then and are losing out on top UFA players also). The Wings were never a free agent destination ? False, there was a team when the Wings could almost dictate the terms and free agents still died to come here...I know it seems like forever. Ehrhoff went to a much better Stanley Cup contender for 4 million that's an absolute steal! The funny thing is those so called "meatheads" are playing a very clean game they know what their job is and they execute it well. I really can't think of any cheapshot by the likes of Colton Orr, Brian McGrattan (guy even gives other enforcers a second chance to guess if they really want to go with him!) or Frazer McLaren. Also in my mind Tootoo is more of an agitator than an enforcer, yeah he will fight and provide some energy but agitators often need enforcers because they aren't feared, their job is to get under the skin of the other team. For everyone saying getting g etting a tough guy is low priority...well the team also failed - like GMR 1983 mentioned - to land top pairing or top 6 guys and some of them don't even want to come here so that doesn't leave a lot of options other than hoping for some prospects to turn out much better than expected, otherwise neither Pasha nor Z will see another cup with this team. And personally I'd rather watch an entertaining team than pussysoft one that gets pushed around and have their best player missing time due to ellbows, hard preseason hits...The rematch against the Ottawa Senators was embarrassing.

My point wasn't that Downey had a major influence on the Cup as much as it was that the Wings had an enforcer on their team not too long ago who Babcock actually put on the ice for 50+ games and the team still managed to be successful that year. I'm in no way saying enforcers reduce injuries or they are required to win a Cup, but that doesn't mean they're obsolete either. Not even regular season and we've had our first thread turn into an enforcer debate. We're ahead of schedule.

Not that I'm arguing that the Wings necessarily need a meathead, but the last Cup win the Wings had Aaron Downey in the lineup. And Babcock played him in 56 games. It's not just an outdated concept from 17 years ago. With Tootoo I think it was more that he could never really hit effectively without taking himself well out of position. And as admirable as it was that he'd drop the gloves with anyone, he hardly struck fear in the hearts of anyone except when he suckerpunched them. Most of what he did on the Wings was staged fights.

To clarify are we talking physical players or "meatheads"? You seem to be going back and forth. Who wouldn't like a physical player who is solid defensively and can score a big goal on occasion. Every team wants a few of those and there aren't that many available. Holland signed Tootoo, a fighter and agitator, and after injuries to nearly every regular on the team, Babcock chose to play absolutely anyone but him. He made it pretty clear that isn't the type of player he wants on his team. The Wings have plenty of needs, but an "enforcer" is at the very bottom of the list. The injuries have nothing to do with having an enforcer. It was 17 years ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it not uncommon to hear people say they believe that the fight night at the joe is the night that team solidified the Cup win?

And replace them with skilled players on the top two lines? Holland hasn't proven he can do that well with the salary cap. I'd like a 40 goal scoring winger on the top 6, but it's not going to happen unless it comes from a Nyquist or Tatar. We're not signing anyone soon. Holland loves spending money on 4th liners like Sammy and Cleary, but doesn't spend less money for a tough guy that is cheaper. Oh come on. Every team has had more toughness than the Wings each of the last 10 plus seasons. We're the anomaly when it comes to enforcers, not the rule. There are plenty of tough guys not on waivers, just like there are plenty who are.

Pretty much my argument. Guys like that are easy to find and don't cost much. Our 4th line isn't that talented to lose a roster spot for an enforcer.

Wheter people like it or not the mental mindset also plays a huge in hockey. If I'm a bigger team I'd love to play the Wings: - hit everything that moves ... at worse case a non existant powerplay big deal kill it off and keep hitting - go after their star players and no response - star gets injured ? Well we don't have to fear anything because the team is pussysoft and won't fight fire with fire. Downey used Laperiere as his punching bag and the whole team came together in such an amazing fashion. I'm starting to wonder what would happen if someone pulls a Keczmar against Pasha, Z business as usual I guess ? For everyone saying oh we don't need tough guys we need skill, this team hasn't won anything since they've lost toughness (sure the Wings also lost a ton of FO and on ice skill too) but that's the fact. Players want to feel safe outthere and play there game, without having to worry about rats. How is Calgary too tough ? They might add a 160 lbs !!! player would people like it to feed someone like that to the wolves ? The rats - who are now taking over - would absolutely take advantage of him and intimidate Johnny Hockey at every opportunity they might still do it, but then have to be prepared for the wrath of Bollig, McGrattan, Engelland, Yonkman... Last season 1 guy stood up for Pasha and it was Sam a guy who doesn't and shouldn't fight. Yeah the Milan Lucic type doesn't grow on trees but it's not that hard to add guys like Colton Orr, McGrattan heck McLaren, Frazer, Steve MacIntyre were on waivers and could be had for nothing. We are talking about 4 line players here, there job isn't to score goals or prevent them they have an average TOi of ~ 8 minutes their job is to keep the other team honest and making sure that people pay for taking advantage of Pasha. If we had MacIntyre or McLaren on our team, Scuderi would have thought twice about hitting Pasha and Cowen would have kept his damn ellbow down. Injuries are not something that will go away so the last thing this team needs is the added factor of more injuries from hard hits in PRESEASON games. Get rid of the instigator and let's see if the Marchand's, Cooke's and Lapierre's of the league are still so "brave"

I tend towards bringing cookies, not coal.

If it's "more of the same" with Cleary and he's still on the ice then it's not his fault. It's Babcock's.

I completely agree. What gets me is that everyone ALREADY knows they're going to make mistakes. That's what bottom end talent does...league wide. Every single team in the league has bottoms end talent making mistakes, and yet when our guys do it there's a huge "I told you so" uproar. It's dumb. If these guys didn't make mistakes, they'd be top end talent.

I'd argue that we've got plenty of toughness and not enough skill. For the last several years we've had awful special teams, defensemen that can't pass the puck without turning it over, marginal goaltending, injuries, and ZERO scoring depth. More skill will help ALL of those things, more toughness will help exactly ONE of those things.

Sounds like another soft euro to me.

Calm down everyone. It's a mild shoulder strain, 2-4 weeks is nothing. Now is the best time for Pavel to rest, and it gives him a chance to get it healed fully with the prospect of missing maybe a week's worth of the regular season. Injuries happen. it's a contact sport. Datsyuk's injury was a freak, he was just hit hard along the boards. No one is ever going to say you're not allowed to hit someone while they're coming down the wall like that, like Pavel was. Hitting the corner like that is a freak. It happens. He'll be fine, and missing a week now is better than missing a week down the stretch. No amount of conditioning could prepare even the fittest athlete in the world for a collision like that. Yes it sucks that Pavel won't be in the lineup on opening night, but I don't see why everyone is just absolutely clamouring with depression at the fact that 3 guys are hurt already. All 3 injuries were freaks. Helm can still play, just slap on a cage and as long as he can breathe it's all good. And we're not the only team with injuries this early. Look around the league. Malkin and Crosby aren't practicing, Drouin broke his hand, Jordan Staal fractured his leg, Stepan also fractured his leg. So were aren't alone. it happens. Just be thankful that Pavel isn't out for that long and that during that time he can still keep his legs fresh