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Are you ashamed of your team if they lose? Why not put the flags on your car either way.

esteef

It boggles my mind to see Red Wings fans who still think enforcers are needed. For pretty much the past 20 years, the Wings have been at or near the bottom of the league in fighting majors (dead last every year since the lockout) and still been the most successful team in the league. Even allowing that fighting is a valuable ability for a team to have, it is painfully obvious that the lack of it can be compensated for in other areas. Instead, the pro-enforcer crowd just overstates the value of whatever 'enforcer' we've had in the past, even though they probably spent the whole year complaining about how soft we were. People talk about the 96-98 teams like they were some great monument to team toughness, but the reality is they still rarely fought and were considered 'soft' compared to most of the league. McCarty was never so tough that he scared anyone. People who spent all of 08 whining about how soft we were now talk about Drake like he was one of the great all-time fighters. This year will likely be no different than any other. We'll have a handful of fights. People will cry about how soft we are, blame every minor injury on our lack of fighters. If we aren't successful it will be because we weren't tough enough. But if we happen to win a Cup, it will be because of great enforcing from Bert and Abby or whoever happens to have a couple fights during the year. The simple fact is that any deficiency can be overcome by enough strength in other areas. A strong defense can make up for a weaker offense or sub-par goaltending. A strong offense can offset a less than stellar defense. Great depth can overcome injuries or below average play from your stars. Dominant stars can compensate for a lack of depth. There isn't any one thing that is an absolute must have. It's the general level of team talent, coaching and system, great effort, and a bit of luck that wins Cups. We have the talent, coaching, and system, despite any specific weaknesses we might have. All we really need now is the effort and luck.

Has anyone else noticed how many people on other sites and TSN's Your Call put so much stock in Pre-Season?? It's absolutely hilarious how many people throw the Wings under the bus because they lose pre-season games, and some by more than 3 goals. Don't people know the whole point of NHL pre-season is to match your prospects up against the other teams top talent? That's why teams play back-to-back and have completely different line-ups each night. You need these games to give your prospects and indication of where they need to be at to play against other teams top talent on and NHL roster night in and night out. Just wanted to see what you guys think about the pre-season games and the outlandish comments people make about "teams chances of winning the cup" because of the exhibition performances.

at esteef!

I'm not anti-fighting, but this comment cracks me up almost as much as the entertainment value comment. If Holland wanted to put together a team like every other team... that's just what they would be, like every other team. Not many teams out there like the Wings and it suits me just fine. Wings don't copy the blueprint, they design it.

No. It's just something to freak out Gaborik if he's reading on this site.

I haven't had the opportunity to watch every preseason game, but from what I've seen Flip and Rafalski have far and away been the Wings' best players thus far. Flip is using his speed to great effect and actually shooting the puck, high and hard. Franzen and Bertuzzi to this point appear to just be tagging along; I can forgive Mule for being a little slow after the injury and Bert is probably just being Bert, though.

Anti-enforcer post alert. BTW, to add to your list, Downey was a horrible person who punched babies and strangled elderly women.

8 pages on the release of Downey? He was a crappy hockey player and a mediocre enforcer on a puck possession team... We have no need for a player like him. I'm glad he is not wasting valuable ice time that a younger player could use.

Aaron Downey would kick our asses in a Boggle tournament.

Jarkko Ruutu finds his hand delicious

I can agree with most of this- an enforcer isn't needed to win. However, this doesn't address the real issue. If the Wings had always carried an enforcer as the 13th forward- playing ~50 games a season- would the Wings have been any less successful?

Here's to hoping they follow suit on Sunday so we can give the Penguins the beating they gave us last week...

Wow, this debate is new.

Pre-season means nothing. The Wings will be the best team in the league if they can remain healthy. There is just too much going for them. Everyone is back healthy and rested and motivated. Hudler and Modano and Salei make the team better. The Hawks have been ripped apart and have zero to no quality depth. All the other so called contenders out there have their weaknesses. Vancouver has Luongo and the Sedins who are choke artists in big games. The Sharks have no depth and Thornton always disappears. They can only win when the refs give them 10 5 on 3's a game The Kings are not ready yet as most of their player's balls have yet to drop. The Preds can compete for so long before they lose out. The Blues never live up to the hype of their idiot fans. The Avs are getting better but most of their success was in the first half of last season. As for the East, the Pens have Sid and Malkin and a bunch of ham and eggers. Philly has no goaltending. The Caps have no balls and are just a regular season stat machine. Brodeur can't carry the Devs anymore and they never score in the playoffs. Boston is good enough to make it to the playoffs but never do anything. Call me a homer (not Holmstrom) but come on man...the Detroit Red Wings are the best team in hockey! We will all enjoy seeing them prove it! All those other jealous douchebags can kiss my ass.

Aaron came to camp with a great attitude and worked hard. But one twist of fate and it's all for naught. It was great to see you again, Aaron, and thanks for the hugs. Good luck and good journeys.

That's a shame. An absolute class act, good luck with everything Downs.

I can point out a lot of providers who say "unlimited" bandwidth, but when push comes to shove, they will not allow you to push that much. Residential broadband providers and hosted solutions may say "unlimited" but when you start pushing a lot through the provider, you will find your account suspended or canceled. True unlimited bandwidth costs are astronomical. If you knew the industry and how shared hosting works, you would understand that. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I know how the industry works and know companies that have lost hosting privileges because of excessive bandwidth when the provider false advertises, and you can find a lot of providers who say unlimited.

I love the "entertainment value" argument. Talk about f***in' hilarious! The Wings are super deep every year to the point that they have to let good players leave yet we reserve spots on the team for Downey and May type players just for "entertainment". This bulls*** gets funnier every time it's argued about! esteef

That was 2006. Now is now. You're supporting my point. They had neither last season, and Erskine still had only four fights. They nevertheless had the best regular season in team history. I don't get how this is important. You claimed that every single team uses a Downey-like player. Washington did not have one last year, and they were enormously successful.

You're arguing that the team needs a player like Downey. People are disagreeing.

Nice to resort to petty insults. I won't be able to sleep. Holland is a great GM, I trust that he knows what's best. I don't think the Red Wings are going to suck because they don't have a player that plays 3 minutes a night and punches people.

This guy is a gimmick. He purposely publishes garbage for the attention. This thread is the perfect example how he operates. Personally, I would remove his link and ignore his s***. You are giving him exactly what he wants.

Consider him traded then if we are going on a "breakout" year. It would shock me (although pleasantly). Just can't see Val blowing up for 50 or 60+ points. Still have to say his strength on the puck at times and unreal puck placement on shots-sometimes-can be fun to watch. Lets just see what happens