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I couldn't help but think of this back and forth when Schenn signed today with Phoenix for 2 years at 2.25 total (1.25 caphit). Signing him for 5mil per year would have been a MASSIVE over-payment.

Lol. First it's not WIIM. It's quite clear you have decided to brush away any fact given here and run the same narrative OVER AND OVER again. The original article came from Mlive that Krsmith posted. http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/07/analyzing_forwards_with_compar.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+detroit-redwings+%28Detroit+Red+Wings+-+MLive.com%29 Second, when all things are equal I showed you a graph of top 15 tough usage forwards in OTHER teams and still in denial. Cool. Seriously if you can't come up with a good argument and keep going on about "well I don't believe numbers" blah blah blah then that's fine. If you have nothing to show for your argument then this conversation is useless. I'm giving you basic stats and you're still stuck on anti-advanced stats narrative. Basic simple, goals against, shots against, ice time.

This is starting to become one of the most used and incorrect arguments for Glendening. The whole "well he plays tough minutes that's why his numbers are bad". Let me show you other players in the league who also play so called "tough minutes". The title of this graph is a dead give away btw. Take a look. Out of 15 players in the league who are subject to "tough minutes" Glendening ranks amongst the bottom at shot generation. What's his excuse? There is no excuse. He's just not a good shutdown forward. I'm moving on from this narrative that Luke Glendening is a good defensive forward. He simply isn't. Kruger, Desjardins, Watson, Nystrom. Majority of the people on that list have better shot attempts than Glendening and similar defensive zone starts. And before anyone says, "it's because our coaches prefer to play safe". That excuse doesn't work when you look at other defensive forward on our team. This guy ranks bottom in shots against when short handed, ranks bottom in GOALS AGAINST when short handed. Ranks towards bottom shot generation amongst other players in the league who have just as much defensive zone starts as him. I think I'd rather us move on from using Glendening for this role and move onto using Sheahan and Helm. Or like I said earlier, give Frans Nielsen the defensive shutdown role just as Zetterberg was in from 2006-2013. If people want to ride on the "Well Luke Glendening works hard and Holland, Babcock and Blashill all praised him so he must be good" narrative then by all means. But even the simplest stats, eyeball tests and obviously advanced stats are racked against this argument. Anyways no point. 5 more years. Hopefully rookie coach learns from his mistakes sooner rather than later. The top two overusage issues on this team are: 1. Henrik Zetterberg 2. Luke Glendening

Precisely. Something I've noticed with the Red Wings is we've had really crappy luck where we lack top 2 centers but are filled with bottom 2 centers. Have plenty of top 9 wingers. Our lack of top 2 centers basically forced Zet to switch to Center and maintain the position which means we no longer had a good/elite winger for Datsyuk (ironically Helm became Datsyuk's winger with Tatar when Franzen went down). Helm was switched to Wing because we have too many Sheahans, Anderssons, Ferraros and Glendenings. Basically bottom 2 line centers. And none of those guys can play winger that well. Maybe Sheahan but not really. This goes hand in hand with my bitching in the other thread about Glendening. We are using players in positions because we are forced to or maybe too stubborn to, rather than being able to use them at their best. I'd say Helm is our best third line center if given the opportunity again. And I'd rank him as a top third line center in the league. I don't know about being the best in the league. Maybe it's possible. It could be proven (to an extent)with math freak data but then people would get into the whole "dial-up", "blah blah advanced stats suck, I'm staying ignorant to it" conversation again STILL HATE HIS CONTRACT THO

If you need evidence so bad why not Google it yourself? Not everyone on the internet cares about trying to convince random people of what they already know. This team has had identity and depth issues for a few years now. It is of zero surprise that Helm had to log a lot of top 6 minutes. Despite the fact this team is nowhere near contention, at least now there is enough depth to have actual top six players play in the top six. I'd fully expect to see Helm back on the third line this season. If not, the management of this team will just continue to show incompetence.

There wasn't any real reason to turn on Franzen anyways. He was a beast in his prime and even better in the playoffs. After he got older he was still a very good top six player and is pretty much the exact player we are missing right now The point is people on this forum will turn on anyone regardless of facts just so it follows their own made up narrative

That's not true because both Helm and Sheahan are considered defensive forwards with higher defensive zone starts than the top 6 and their numbers are far better than Glendening. Far better. Would you like me to post another chart or is it going to end up in another excuse driven post? Why bother I guess. I've said my piece. Last year when WIIM posted it we all called them crazy. At this point Mlive has caught on and I'm sure the rest of the press will follow suit. BTW what does bad team mean? We were one of 8 teams to make the playoffs in the east. That's a bad excuse. In the chart I posted of top toughest usage forwards, Auston Watson and Mikka Salomaki both play for Nashville (7th seed). Bryon Froese plays for the Maple Leafs (Lol). I feel like you're completely ignoring charts and figures people are posting for you without even reading jumping to conclusions of denial. Unless you can actually look at the points I'm trying to make, and read the information on the charts (and realize those other players are also on "bad teams"), this is pointless. I'm basically arguing with someone who refuses to look at data.

So you would rather be "right" and Helm sucks, then be "wrong" and have Helm light it up this year? Way to be a fan. We all get it, you don't like Helm, but we don't have to have this debate in every active thread. Its getting Bill/Miller like.

He wasn't moved off center because he's wasn't good at it. We've lacked wingers and had a bunch of lower line centers so Helm played wing. To me, his ability to play in many situations is one of his strengths. Helm's not a top 6 winger. haven't seen anyone argue that. There was some nice goals from mr. no hands this past year. 3 were GWG (tied for 3rd on the team behind Lark and Abby). Think he would have had a better year if he hadn't had the concussion in training camp which I think accounted for the slump to start the year.

Not sure what your point is. Bergeron is also better defensively than Gretzky or Lemieux. When you're scoring 200 points in a season, nobody cares about Selke awards. Not to mention, being a two-way center wasn't as important in the 80's. What Fedorov did in 1994 was impressive and has only been approached by Datsyuk when he scored 95+ points in back to back seasons while winning the Selke. But that point alone doesn't mean Ilitch should drop what he's doing and put him in the rafters. Like I and others mentioned, Fedorov leaving the way he did screwed him over. Nobody is arguing about his skills or awards.

I don't mind having him if he wasn't treated like a savior defensive forward. I don't hate the guy at all. I hate how he's used. I also don't like how he's labelled as a great defensive forward when he's clearly not. I present all these bad numbers of Glendening. But is that his fault? No. That's a coaching issue. When you put a player in a position to fail, that's on you as a coach. The difference between Babcock and Blashill is that Babcock used Glendening sparingly and in the right situations. Blashill for whatever reason decided to take it up 3 or 4 notches and use the hell out of him last season. Something Babcock was too smart to do. One thing Babcock was good at was masking his players weaknesses. Blashill has a lot to learn in that regard. His player usage is definitely poorer. He's got to stick to his own philosophy and step away from Babcockian hockey.

You're flat out wrong on Helm. He is not a 4th liner, he is a very good 3rd line center / winger. He may be slightly overpaid, but only by around $500K, and that's certainly not worth all the b****ing you're doing about it... As of right now he is better in that role than all the players you mentioned, maybe with the exception of Athanasiou. Stop trying to compare Helm with Miller and Ott. They're not even close to being similar in any way, other than the team they play for and the fact that they can kill penalties. But even then there's the difference that Helm is a much better penalty killer...

Lol you think that's bad. Take a look at this. He's one of the worst penalty killers in the league. This isn't even advanced stats btw. This is just simple numbers put on a graph. It's basically showing all the penalty killers from 2007-2016. It's showing how many shots different penalty killers allow per 60 minutes of penalty killing time. Just take a look at Glendening on the graph. He allows 100 shots per 60 minutes of penalty kill time. I feel bad for Howard and Mrazek. Take a look at where Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the graph lol. They only allowed about 50 shots per 60 minutes. It also shows that Glendening is one of the worst penalty killers when it comes to goals against on the PK.

Yeah, 200 fans equates to 6-7 fans per team IF they spread out equally the responders over the fanbases. But it doesn't seem that they did that - they just took whoever responded. Could be all Tampa fans. Regardless of what fans they are, they ranked the entire league and I guarantee most fans know very little about how all teams draft, etc.

Lol this article is meaningless. Let's ask a very small sample size some questions about every team, most of which they're inequipped to answer, and then draw conclusions from this data. How does this s*** get published? I'm done with this thread lol

I would absolutely care. These are good young players. Their trade value/"hype" has been "GREATLY diminished" because the Wings are run by assholes.

The only way I'd be down with Streit would be if we got rid of Ericsson or Howard. He's not worth Jurco or any of the younger players.

#1 - He signed a 3 year contract with this team, tries to leave after the first year - and then puts out an article (right before the start of the playoffs) letting everyone know he's leaving after the second year to "gives back to the Russia people". I guess that wasn't much of an untimely distraction? #2 - He predictably takes a step back from that stance, and says he didn't make any decision yet (although it was obvious he did) - but if he does leave, it's actually because he wants to see his daughter more... Because who could argue with that? #3 - He ultimately (to no surprise) leaves, and costs us Jacob Chychrun. #4 - He then signs with the best team in the KHL, which is a 30 hour drive from his daughter. If any other long term Red Wing handled their departure worse than he did, please let me know. If not, then no - I don't think I'm overstating a little.

Lol at Z & Pav and not Feds/Osgood. Osgood owns most the Red Wings playoff records, plus 400 wins. feds the best player on the team throughout the 90's and 3 Cup era. 91 and 30 absolutely. Especially if you're even considering 13 & 40.