Leaderboard

Lets try to get this thread back on track, things seem to be getting quite personal at this point. At the end of the day we need a top pairing D-man, and ideally a future #1 center. If we get those two things, I think it completely changes the look of our team.

"People don't want the best defenseman available, they want a guy they 'like.' I'm not one of these people. ORLOV! ORLOV! ORLOV! Orlov is better than Trouba! Orlov is better than Shattenkirk! No one here talks about Orlov! Why does no one talk about Orlov?! You people like Trouba too much. You overrate him. He's not the best defenseman available, he's just a guy you 'like.' I'm not like you people. I'm objective. Can we please talk about Orlov now? When can we talk about Orlov???" Orlov's good. I don't think he's clearly superior to Trouba and I don't think Trouba is clearly superior to him. His HERO chart is filthy... ...but that TOI is a not-insignificant asterisk. As is the fact that he plays for a really good Caps team. Orlov's career stats: 2011-12: 19 points in 60 games 2012-13: 1 point in 5 games 2013-14: 11 points in 54 games 2014-15: 29 points in 82 games 2016-17: 33 points in 82 games Trouba's career stats: 2013-14: 29 points in 65 games 2014-15: 22 points in 65 games 2015-16: 21 points in 81 games 2016-17: 33 points in 60 games So, no, I don't agree that Orlov "outperforms Trouba across the board." Like krsmith said, Trouba's from Michigan and he's been linked to the Wings in trade rumors. That alone could account for why he gets so much love in an online Wings community. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's fandom. You like what you like, you celebrate what you like. Like krsmith also said, true top-tier defensemen aren't really available (and even if they are, we don't have much in the way of ultra-sexy trade chips). There are plenty of defensemen who are as good as or better than Trouba (and Orlov), but Trouba is kinda-sorta-maybe in that sweet spot of being very good but not so good that he'd cost us Larkin and Svechnikov and a first-round pick and a second-round pick. Personally, if we're talking trade targets, I'll say what I've said a thousand times before: we should really be focusing on under-the-radar players that could, potentially, match the production of more expensive players. Moneypuck.

Wait, now...what? Your entire argument is that proven players are worth more than prospects, but now you're saying in this scenario that Svechnikov (a prospect) would be worth more than proven scorers Tatar or Nyquist? While I would say there are some scenarios where a team would have a higher interest in Svech than the others (a team starting a rebuild, or trying to shed cap, or wanting an asset they don't need to protect and/or is waiver exempt), that is not the same as having more value, nor does Winnipeg fit those situations. If anything, they are the exact opposite. The only reasons they might consider trading Trouba right now is either: They think doing so can make their team better, in which case they would prefer proven players, or they fear they will lose him for nothing, in which case they want whatever is the best they can get...(first choice likely being a direct replacement) which would again be proven players ahead of Svech at least. High draft pick would likely be acceptable. A package centering on Tatar or Nyquist maybe wouldn't do it (though it might if they were looking to trade him to add a scoring winger), but if it doesn't then a package centering on Svech for sure wouldn't either. And if you're just looking to add value to a package centering on something like our 1st-rounder, Trouba isn't worth that much. Neither is Fowler or Orlov. Or Dumba. Probably not Barrie or Faulk either. Hamilton probably would be. We shouldn't be looking at proven players unless the cost is low, which pretty much none of the players talked about would be. We should be looking at high-end prospects and under-utilized players, good young players who might be had without giving up significant future assets. For the most part the only proven players that get traded are those who have proven they aren't franchise cornerstones.

Why would we spend time talking about players that haven't been rumored to be available though? There are 30+ defensemen in the league better than Trouba that no one ever mentions because there is literally zero chance any of them get moved. The reason people talk about Trouba so much is because he's a local kid that would love to play for his hometown Red Wings. He was unhappy playing in Winnipeg (maybe that has changed), and there is a good chance that when he becomes a free agent, he would look long and hard at Detroit as a possible destination. Of course people "want" the best defensemen, but the best defensemen just aren't available. If Orlov were being shopped, of course people would want him. Do you think because people keep bringing up Trouba, they think he's a top 10 defenseman in the league, and would choose him over Karlsson, Hedman, Doughty, etc? Hell no. It's simply because even though it is very unlikely, there is an ever so slight possibility we could pry him out of Winnipeg. There's zero chance we could ever pry any of the aforementioned defensemen out of their respective cities. But for what it's worth Trouba >>> Orlov & Shattenkirk. If for no other reason, age.

I can understand going with Murray, but Fleury got them this far. I would have given him another chance. Bad periods can happen to anyone at any time. I fear the Pens will come roaring back to prove themselves after the last game. No matter who is in goal, Ottawa will have a fight on their hands.

Heard these rumors. It would be super underwhelming if our D addition is Calvin de Haan. We picked a good year to miss the playoffs and rebuild though IMO. Lot's of teams will scrambling to make moves and readjust their rosters. There will be plenty of opportunities for Holland to make moves if he wants to make moves.

Please accept this woof meme as payment

From Kahn: http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/05/post_25.html#incart_river_index There’s a few teams with potential protection issues on defense, including Minnesota, Nashville, Anaheim, Winnipeg and the New York Islanders. If the Wild opt to protect three defensemen, Ryan Suter and Jared Spurgeon surely will be two of them. That leaves one spot for either Jonas Brodin, Matt Dumba or Marco Scandella. Dumba’s name surfaces in more trade speculation than the others. Nashville is another club with a decision to make. The Predators might elect to protect four defensemen (P.K. Subban, Roman Josi, Ryan Ellis and Mattias Ekholm) and just four forwards. If not, they’ll need to move a good defenseman. The Jets might opt to protect four defensemen as well, unless they make a trade. Dustin Byfuglien and Tobias Enstrom have no-movement clauses and Winnipeg isn’t going to expose Jacob Trouba or Tyler Myers. The New York Islanders might need to move a defenseman, perhaps Calvin de Haan, who is rumored to be on the Red Wings’ radar. Johnny Boychuk must be protected due to his no-movement clause (unless he agrees to waive it) and the two other spots could go to Nick Leddy and Travis Hamonic. The Ducks have a plethora of defensemen. They figure to protect Cam Fowler, Hampus Lindholm and Sami Vatanen, assuming Kevin Bieksa waives his no-movement clause (he might as well, since Vegas won’t take a 35-year-old). That would leave Josh Manson exposed.

Untouchable is one of those things people throw around, but don't mean literally. There isn't a person here who wouldn't trade everyone on their "untouchable" list if they thought the return would be something even better. All it really means is that you think there are better trade options. Sure, Svech and a 2nd would be good. So good that I don't think there's a chance in hell Cheveldayoff would go for it. Add Tatar and it's a much more realistic package, and also a much less clear answer. If you think it's likely that Trouba will take off like Burns did, you say yes, if not maybe you look at what you can get for just Tatar and a 2nd.

b-but i made you dis...

Detroit needs a #1 center and 2 top pair D. Larkin might stil be that #1 C. Maybe not. He's the only one who has the potential to be that though. Cholowski might be a top pair D, but probably not for 4-5 years. They have a surplus of wingers. Tatar, Nyquist, Mantha, Svechnikov, Smith, and there's a pretty good chance AA and Holmstrom end up on the wing. The smart move is to package a forward with a pick or two and/or another player and get what they need. There are teams who have more players that they'd want to protect than they can, Winnipeg and Minnesota for example. The Jets have Buff, Trouba, Myers, and Enstrom. Buff and Enstrom have a NMC, either they have to waive it or they have to be protected. They'd probably rather move Myers than Trouba, but then again it seems pretty clear Trouba wants out anyway. A second, a third, their choice of wingers, and another player (XO, Sheahan, etc.) might do it. For Myers, Nyquist or Tatar and a 3rd might get it done. Maybe not, but you have to make the offer. The Wild have Suter, Dumba, Spurgeon, and Brodin. Suter and Dumba are likely the 2 they want to protect, and be willing to move Brodin or Spurgeon. They're going to want a guy they don't have to expose to the draft in return, which probably means they'd want Larkin, Cholowski, or Svechnikov. Spurgeon can give a list of 20 teams he won't accept a trade to, giving him some leverage and potentially lowering what they can get. He's also 27 and has a cap hit just south of $5.2 mil. Brodin is younger and while not cheap, is signed for 4 years at a hit of $4.167 mil. His numbers aren't as good as Trouba's and his role was smaller, but he could possibly be had for less because of that. Svechnikov and a second might at least get the conversation started. There are deals to be made, Detroit has the assets to at least potentially make one. If Holland can't at least be in the picture, he fails horribly.

My guess is that Holland would be laughed at and told not to call again. There's basically no way that Silvferberg goes unprotected by Anaheim. Bieksa will either be asked to waive his NMC, they buy him out, or Anaheim offers an incentive for Vegas to not draft the unprotected player that Anaheim wants to keep.

Hey now, I like Orlov.. *drifts back into the shadows* No really though, I remember a discussion about him being someone we should look at getting given Washington's upcoming cap crunch. I'm still really bummed we didn't stay in the western conference long enough for Boston to consider trading us Hamilton.

Bertuzzi comes to play in the big games.

Some real good stats so far: Bertuzzi------ 8 GP, 10 pts, +5 Svechnikov-- 8 GP, 9 pts, +4 Nosek-------- 8 GP, 8 pts, +6 Callahan----- 8 GP, 8 pts, +2 Frk------------ 5 GP, 5 pts, +4 Russo-------- 8 GP, 5 pts, +5 Hicketts------ 8 GP, 4 pts, +3 McIlrath------ 8 GP, 4 pts, +7 Bertuzzi is also the goals leader with 5. I'm also impressed by Big Dylan's +7

Bouwmeester was older and on a big contract when they Flames were looking to trade him. Trouba is 23 and on a reasonable deal. Apples and oranges. Trouba is a better defenseman at 23 than anyone the Wings have now, and Cholowski is the only one in the system with a reasonable chance of being better. He's at least as good as older players like Shattenkirk. Even if he never develops much more than he is, it's worth trading Svechnikov, or any other winger the Wings have. It's not just Trouba, either. He's just the one originally mentioned. Detroit NEEDS two top pair defensemen. A young guy like Trouba, Dumba, Brodin, Fowler, or anyone similar would help. Detroit has Tatar, Nyquist, Larkin, Mantha, Svechnikov, Smith, AA, Holmstrom, Ehn, and whoever they take in this year's draft as either established or potential top 6 forwards. Most of them are wings. They have Cholowski as a potential top pair defenseman, and he's probably 2 or 3 years away from the NHL, even without the Wings' overly cautious approach at development. Why the F would you not trade from a position you're pretty well stocked at to get what you need? How much better off would they be now if they had traded Sproul and Pulkkinen for a good young established NHL player 3 years ago? But we can't do THAT because POTENTIAL!!!!!! The one thing Dave Dombrowski did well for the Tigers is not get caught up in love for prospects. You Id the ones you're 95+% sure will come close to their ceiling and trade the rest while they have peak value. Hell, I remember people freaking out when they got Cabrera because they sent Cameron "5 tool future superstar" Maybin and Andrew "You can't trade a big lefty pitcher!" Miller to the Marlins.

Ok ok, I admit I´m not the best hockey analyst, but.. isn´t he too old for us? Just asking.

How I will be watching Wings games next season.

Counting guys that actually contribute to their teams... Nashville loses: Suter, Weber, Jones, Del Zotto, Klein, and Franson (basically an entire Defensive unit, and a good one at that) Nashville adds: Subban (one top pairing guy) Still amazing Detroit loses: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart (a complete top pairing and a 2nd pairing guy) Detroit adds: Green, Dekeyser (a complete 2nd pairing) Worse than ever Nashville is hella good at developing their young D men. We've been pretty bad.

Yikes, what's happened to Rinne since game 1? That was a terrible goal to give up. Jeff Blashill can't hear what you're saying. He's got his AHL and USHL Cup rings plugged into his ears.

me: enters forum, LGW: Pizza Pizza Pizza Pizza ... me:

Is it laced with Trudeau sauce?