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With the announcement of this relationship, how Amway conducts their business is very much now tied to the Red Wings image. That's why people are pissed. I imagine that simple fact is why this thread has been allowed to go on. There's no way to discuss this matter without acknowledging what Amway stands for. It's a profoundly negative association for this team to have. Even I'm shocked by how in a matter of days my respect level has sunk for this organization. Again, literally, Amway is the absolute last company I would ever want to be this closely associated with the Wings. A close second would be "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Wal-Mart." The Red Wings have been epitomized by pure class, but now it reeks of pure greed and negligence. At this point in time, I cannot believe that this is an organization that cares about the well-being of it's fans. No one with genuine care or concern for the people is going to want to team up this publicly with a company like Amway. This is about money, plain and simple, no matter the cost.

Wow, straw man, wow. If you're going to go there, I guess I will to while further defending my position on this matter. The ideas of holding Amway responsible for their part in running a sleazy, manipulative business and holding individuals joining in that business responsible for their actions are not mutually exclusive. By no means would I suggest that all the Amway "IBO's" are any more victims of Amway's schemes as they are their own greed and gullibility. Ask any friend of mine that's gotten involved and then out of Amway if I ever gave them a pass and they'll tell you flat out that I didn't hold any punches in making them acknowledge what went profoundly wrong in their thought process. The main colossal flaw in your perspective is very simple to illustrate. Just consider drug dealers and drug addicts. Is anyone in their right mind going to pronounce the drug dealer innocent by virtue of capitalism and the drug addicts guilty because they made the choice to buy the drugs? Does that make any sense at all? I don't think so. Few things in life are black and white. Is it not possible that both have slipped up here? And in an effort to address a general problem, is it not reasonable to want to look for root causes? Is it not reasonable to objectively evaluate the whole of a problem to better understand it? Surely no more unreasonable than seemingly suggesting that we shouldn't criticize Amway, again, seemingly by virtue of the positive economic and social benefits of the capitalist system in general, as a wrong-doer. The only thing black and white about this topic to me is that there are a lot of people running the scheme and placing their hope on the scheme that are making harmful choices. The primary difference between the runners and the participants though is that for the most part, in the short-term, an Amway "IBO" is making choices that hurt themselves. But Amway's decision to resort to a business model that clearly is centered around exploiting people's weaknesses and circumventing people's typical consumer defenses. It's a business model that is underhanded and predatory. And lumping Amway in with capitalists is disrespectful to the essence of capitalism. The product Amway is most profiting on is (false) hope. The "products" you supposedly join Amway to sell are almost entirely purchased by and for the Amway IBO's, though internally you're simply "investing into your business." All the while you're also pouring more money into your Amway membership, a never-ending supply of "motivational and educational" material to help you grow your business, conferences to further inspire you, and if you manage to wind up sticking with it long enough to get some people under you, you're buying their "consumer products" too, and by that I mean far too often, the people under you that you're purchasing the vitamins for don't pay up. Nothing you can do about that. Oh well, just chalk it up to an "investment in your business." Bottom line, Amway is anything but a commendable capitalist venture. No corporation or business is perfect, but usually most businesses are actually trying to offer an actual product or service that is of some tangible substance to someone. And what truly is great about capitalism is that if you have a great product that a lot of people want, you will be rewarded for producing and selling it, and I take no issue with this concept at all. But again, when looked at wholistically and objectively, it's clear that Amway is not producing a product that offers consumers much in terms of utility. Indeed, their primary product, the hope and the dream, is essentially vaporware, to use the word generally. Furthermore, they have engineered their system to trip people's defenses up by infiltrating organizations, churches, clubs, basically any group of people that already has a built-in trust factor. They use that trust and social pressure against people, as well as every other little trick to take advantage of the less noble aspects of human nature. They know this. They've spent years crafting their "drug," and just as much time pin-pointing the easiest targets. They know exactly what they're doing. Again, it's predatory and underhanded. You can easily dig deeper and mine up plenty of information to suggest that their ill-informed financial choices hurt the society and economy on whole as well. Just like all the terrible real-estate loans given out in the late-90's that came back to haunt us in 2008, people made poor personal decisions that ended up hurting the economy and society on whole. In that case as well, it's absurd and illogical to only blame the banks for offering the loans or only blame those taking the loans for taking more than they could expect to reasonably handle. All parties involved made poor decisions. I don't care who you are or what side you're on, if you're making poor decisions, you're part of the problem. By this reasonable logic, I conclude that Amway is very much part of the problem. They are not the whole of the problem and their part in it does not minimize the role of personal responsibility at all. But they are the purveyors of a blatantly crooked business model that has been shown time and time again to have a tremendous negative effect on people's lives. That matter has nothing to do with capitalism, and as clearly illustrated, the logic that justifies their actions by virtue of capitalism opens plenty of doors to effects that I absolutely guarantee would send you crying to your knees if they came knocking on your doorstep. Quite simply, Amway does infinitely more harm than good for society. Most any reasonable, objective, informed person can logically understand and defend that accusation. To many of us, the logical side of it as well as the emotional side of having to deal with friends and family who's lives were devastated by joining Amway leave us with nothing but contempt and disgust for Amway. That is why we don't want to have a team we love have much of anything to do with Amway if at all possible, let alone having to incessantly read and hear "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Amway." The Detroit Red Wings, one of the classiest organizations in all of sports, presented by Amway, a company always bound to be one of the scummiest on any list of sleazy businesses. The whole idea is nothing short of utterly disgraceful.

Pretty epic video right here. There's also some clips from interviews and other stuff. Enjoy!

Yes. I am also sorry that life does not work that way. Thank you for the lesson. I feel more adult now.

I gave you the neg for mentioning a cause of death that has NOT been established. Yes, he was a fan favorite. He was my favorite player for the Predators. But for you, or any other poster, to start posting crap without a credible source to back it up....it pissed me off. Still does. And I'm not apologizing for it. If you want to start calling people out for being sick f***s, I suggest a look in the mirror first. I'm done. Show some respect people. A 35 year old man with 2 little girls is dead. PredsFanInTheBayouState, thank you for posting the full page ad that was in the Tennessean. I don't subscribe to the paper, and I couldn't find it online.

Just thought we'd have a fun offseason thread with not much going on right now. I'm looking at many factors when compiling this list, such as: longevity, level of play, stats relative to the era, individual accolades and playoff numbers. I narrowed it down to three players because I thought that would generate the most debate and not get too complicated. At the end of the day (like everything else) this is still highly subjective, but I honestly tried to be as objective as possible. Avalanche/Nordiques 1. Sakic 2. Roy 3. Forsberg Blackhawks 1. Mikita 2. Hull 3. Esposito Blue Jackets 1. Nash 2. Vyborny 3. Mason Blues 1. Hull 2. MacInnis 3. Federko Bruins 1. Orr 2. Bourque 3. Esposito Canadiens 1. Richard 2. Beliveau 3. Lafleur Canucks 1. Bure 2. Naslund 3. Linden Capitals 1. Ovechkin 2. Bondra 3. Gartner Coyotes/Jets 1. Hawerchuk 2. Steen 3. Doan Devils 1. Brodeur 2. Stevens 3. Elias Ducks 1. Selanne 2. Kariya 3. Niedermayer Flames 1. Iginla 2. MacInnis 3. Fleury Flyers 1. Clarke 2. Parent 3. Lindros Hurricanes/Whalers 1. Francis 2. Staal 3. Brind’Amour Islanders 1. Trottier 2. Potvin 3. Bossy Jets/Thrashers 1. Kovalchuk 2. Hossa 3. Kozlov Kings 1. Gretzky 2. Dionne 3. Robitaille Leafs 1. Conacher 2. Apps 3. Mahovlich Lightning 1. St. Louis 2. Lecavalier 3. Richards Oilers 1. Gretzky 2. Messier 3. Coffey Panthers 1. Jokinen 2. Bure 3. Vanbiesbrouck Penguins 1. Lemieux 2. Jagr 3. Crosby Predators 1. Timonen 2. Vokoun 3. Weber Rangers 1. Leetch 2. Gilbert 3. Bathgate Red Wings 1. Howe 2. Lidstrom 3. Yzerman Sabres 1. Hasek 2. Perreault 3. Martin Senators 1. Alfredsson 2. Redden 3. Heatley Sharks 1. Marleau 2. Nabokov 3. Thornton Stars/North Stars 1. Modano 2. Zubov 3. Broten Wild 1. Gaborik 2. Backstrom 3. Koivu

But he is the face of the NHL dummy...

Eklund is a total idiot, but he's made a pretty sweet gig for himself. He gets 1,000 predictions wrong, but then people will point to the one story he broke minutes before it was on TSN and say "see! he does have the inside scoop!"

I know he was a public figure, but for the sake of his memory and respect for his wife and kids, I think we've entered the area where we need to respect their privacy and simply mourn the passing of a man who was influential as a hockey player. Not trying to tell people what to do or say, or what they can or can't say. Just saying that maybe we need to think about that and let the guy rest in peace.

A) I know a guy who lost $15,000 alone in products that people under him "bought" and didn't pay for. It wasn't in one fell swoop, but the way the numbers are incessantly distorted by the higher ups and with all the propaganda and "positivity," it's a matter that easily gets overlooked. And it's most certainly not a matter in which Amway/Quixtar was willing to help him out on at any point in time, despite him making the effort. I'm not sure what they have in print on the matter, but I think most anyone with a bit of knowledge on their inner workings understands that the written rules don't dictate the way the company is run. They're just their to satisfy lawmakers for a little while and give the impression of security and support. B) Opinion: maybe not technically illegal, but most positively should be. It's not hard to draw lines in the sand for good reason and enforce them with common sense. The intricacy of the legal manipulation of the law is where it gets muddy. The common sense, no-nonsense approach to enforcement would be simple: if you're more concerned with selling people on a business opportunity than selling the "product" you're supposedly selling, shut it down. It's bound to lead to scams and schemes that do society on whole no good. The source of any profits would clearly paint the picture too. C) Sure, again, it is their own problem if they get caught up in it, but it doesn't excuse the purveyor of the scheme. Amway's business is built on lies and deceit. Blogging is a trap that's completely self-contained. You're not surrounded by a circle of people that are trying to isolate you from those that bring common sense to the table. There's no huge propaganda machine working directly in people's lives in so many different ways to trap you in, much like a cult does. Amway's psychological attack strategies are fairly unique and one of the primary and most-alarming problems with the whole system. It's the poison that makes Amway most dangerous. D) again, not their fault? To me, it's the same as saying it's not a drug dealers fault people are drug addicts. It's as if it wasn't their plan to get people involved in such a manner. Make no mistake, everything Amway does is very intentional. It's not a happy accident they stumbled upon at all. Furthermore, again and again it's been illustrated how much the business hurts people, yet they continue to push it with more and more steam. I mean...I mean...I'm about to go caps lock here against my better judgement...I MEAN, WHY DOES ANYONE THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO NOW GET LINKED UP WITH THE RED WINGS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? It's just another door they're trying to pry open to get into people's heads with a system they know will almost certainly be a drain on peoples money, time and relationships. They know the score. They know exactly what they're doing. Make no mistake about it.

Can you all shut the hell up about how Amway does their business (shady or not) and maybe discuss something relating to the Red Wings here? After all, at least Amway is less shady than the US Government. and i'm glad the Gov't doesn't sponsor our team

It's sad... I actually hesitated before I posted it too, because of that... but then thought "what the hell, if someone can't laugh at things and doesn't have a sense of humor, I don't need to appeal to them anyway" Our world would be a better place if people learned to laugh more... Strongly disagree... it doesn't even have to do with the money, Franson could be a top 4, possibly top 2 dman if used right and Lombardi is a FANTASTIC 3rd line center/pk/faceoff specialist (if truely healthy)... both players will fill very important roster spots for Toronto

Why did Pulu get downgraded rank wise after a killer season in Finland? The ranks and lists are s***, I hate to be so blunt, but I won't sugar coat it, Marshall and Ferraro top ten? Alqvist not? Pulu going from 8 to 7.5 and both being D? I could see that one if he was a 7.5B, but he blew everyone's expectations out of the water last season, and is having a strong preseason this year.

These two crackpots who started this fiasco think they own the city of Grand Rapids. Their names are on everything in that town. DeVos also tried to run for governor, and got his ass kicked by Jennifer Granholm. He couldn't own everyone, thank God. I'm with the one who said they would write a letter to protest this. I love my team, and I always will. The love for the Wings goes back almost 50 years (yes, I'm that old), longer than most marriages last. But this is too much.

Auto Erotic asphyxiation....what a way to go. RIP Wade, you were always a fan favorite.

there was nice full page tribute to wade belak in yesterdays tennessean written by preds player david legwand: <A href="http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/795012/belak-ad_1315641a.jpg">

Always been one of my favs!

Have to agree with this one. Getzlaf is a beast, Perry has established himself as a force to be reckoned with (despite still being a complete ******), and throw Bobby Ryan on a line with them, when healthy they are the most dangerous scoring line in the league IMO.

It is NOT ok to be fat. It is unhealthy. It has nothing to do with bias. If you are fat you are not healthy and in 99% of the cases it is preventable. None of the things you mentioned above are preventable. Your comparison is not valid. This is exactly the problem. Society wants to compare being fat with a disability. Granted that there are a small % of people that because of medical reasons are pre-destined to be fat but they are in a small minority. Most of the people just don't eat right and exercise enough and that should be discouraged.

As far as I'm concerned, he need never speak again.

Not to be rude, but would giving you my friend's source really matter in this topic, when I am just asking a simple question out of curiosity?

LOL. Pittsburgh will finish top 4 in the conference with our without Crosby. hahaha --- i thought you guys knew hockey? All you guys know is how to be a bunch of bumbling idiots. lol too funny.

I get what you're saying, but the premise of which you are labelling the company crooked is wrong. And the company was started in Ada Michigan by Devos and Van Andel - so they are the two head representatives. Just like Illitch is the head rep for Little Caesars. Two HUGE michigan based companies that are gigantic philanthropists back to the State. All I'm saying is - considering how much these individuals network circles cross, this sponsorship makes a ton of sense. People just need to relax.

I can't believe someone would neg' me for saying he was a fan favorite. Some sick f***s on this site.

Thank you, at least one person in this thread understands the concept of personal responsibility. I can't believe people are actually ignorant enough to neg your posts. The good thing about capitalism is that it has lifted countless millions out of poverty, the bad thing about capitalism is that if you make uninformed decisions you lose your money. But don't blame the person who made the uninformed decision, he/she is a victim of the system and doomed to poverty by pure bad luck/scheming by evil rich people . On topic, I hate the fact that we have a corporate sponsor, but that has nothing to with it being Amway, I just don't want to see our sweaters start to look like the hood of a NASCAR car.