Fixing this mess....

[kickazz 5,459]

For the people talking about Datsyuk making $7 million - or even $5 million if he signs another extension and only plays 50 games and produces like 34 points. Let me ask you a question (and answer it too)

How much did Steve Yzerman make in his 1 year extension in 2005/06 and how much did he produce?

GP 61

PTS 34

Salary $1,250,000

Now I'm not saying Datsyuk would be paid $1.25 mill but to assume he would get $6 million as a 39 year old FORWARD (NOT DEFENSE FFS) is absurd.

He can easily be an affordable re-sign and his contract will workout depending on his assumed longevity (i.e they know he can no longer play the full season) and the kids will get their play time.

Building around the kids & keep the veteran for cheaper.

Edited March 22, 2016 by kickazz

[Learn2LuvIt 246]

For the people talking about Datsyuk making $7 million - or even $5 million if he signs another extension and only plays 50 games and produces like 34 points. Let me ask you a question (and answer it too)

How much did Steve Yzerman make in his 1 year extension in 2005/06 and how much did he produce?

GP 61

PTS 34

Salary $1,250,000

Now I'm not saying Datsyuk would be paid $1.25 mill but to assume he would get $6 million as a 39 year old FORWARD (NOT DEFENSE FFS) is absurd.

He can easily be an affordable re-sign and his contract will workout depending on his assumed longevity (i.e they know he can no longer play the full season) and the kids will get their play time.

Building around the kids & keep the veteran for cheaper.

I think Stevie's situation was a bit different though. Dats has hinted for many years that he'd like to return to Russia sooner, rather than later. He's even hinted at playing in the KHL at some point later in his career (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/wings/2014/09/02/pavel-datsyuk-detroit-red-wings-khl/14953775/). Stevie, on the other hand, is a North American guy who spent a good portion of the year (summers included) here in Detroit with his family. And, Stevie was assured a front office job with the Wings long before he retired. So, I see why Stevie took less money/a.k.a. "home town discount" for his extension. He had a lot to keep him here and engaged, and knew that he'd be in our front office when he hung up the skates. Dats on the other hand...not sure if any offer remotely out of whack offer to comparable salaries would keep him here. I can see maybe a slightly less than "the going rate", but i wouldn't count on Dats taking a mid-range$ to low$ offer to stay here and play. Which I'm totally okay with. Stevie was/is special to Detroit. Dats is as well, but it's hard to expect a guy that grew up on a different continent with a different native tongue (Dats still kind of struggles with English) to not want to return home as soon as it makes sense (personally and financially).

Edited March 22, 2016 by Learn2LuvIt

[kickazz 5,459]

Also, just to repeat: Luke Glendening is the best face-off man on the Detroit Red Wings roster (statistically).

No he isnt. Datsyuk is.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Fix this mess?

Our owner would have to be aware of what's going on for starters...

I'm pretty sure Chris is running the day to day. He seems to be focused on getting the playoff revenue over trying to win the Cup.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I'm pretty sure Chris is running the day to day. He seems to be focused on getting the playoff revenue over trying to win the Cup.

You mean for the Tigers?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Best thing would be if Mr. I sold the other useless teams and have his focus on making this team a juggernaut again

[kickazz 5,459]

Best thing would be if Mr. I sold the other useless teams and have his focus on making this team a juggernaut again

Which other "teams" Frank?

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Which other "teams" Frank?

The Baseball and NFL team.

[kickazz 5,459]

I think Stevie's situation was a bit different though. Dats has hinted for many years that he'd like to return to Russia sooner, rather than later. He's even hinted at playing in the KHL at some point later in his career (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/wings/2014/09/02/pavel-datsyuk-detroit-red-wings-khl/14953775/). Stevie, on the other hand, is a North American guy who spent a good portion of the year (summers included) here in Detroit with his family. And, Stevie was assured a front office job with the Wings long before he retired. So, I see why Stevie took less money/a.k.a. "home town discount" for his extension. He had a lot to keep him here and engaged, and knew that he'd be in our front office when he hung up the skates. Dats on the other hand...not sure if any offer remotely out of whack offer to comparable salaries would keep him here. I can see maybe a slightly less than "the going rate", but i wouldn't count on Dats taking a mid-range$ to low$ offer to stay here and play. Which I'm totally okay with. Stevie was/is special to Detroit. Dats is as well, but it's hard to expect a guy that grew up on a different continent with a different native tongue (Dats still kind of struggles with English) to not want to return home as soon as it makes sense (personally and financially).

Yes I agree. But what I am saying is. IF Datsyuk decided to stay another year or two I don't think he will be greedy with his contract. Yzerman took a huge discount and I'm thinking Dats will be somewhere in the middle. Nothing around 6-7 mill like some people are suggesting. Maybe something around what Jagr is currently making. Possibly only a bit higher.

But the bigger point I was trying to make was that Yzerman's production had declined and so was his ability to play the 82 game schedule. Just as Datsyuk no longer can.

Holland, Datsyuk and his agent will know this if and when they negotiate a new 1-2 year extension. His pay will reflect his previous performance and his ability to play.

Edited March 23, 2016 by kickazz

[Richdg 267]

How about we don't resign some of those players?

As to the highlighted point. We're going to have DK, Oullett, Marchenko, Sproul, Smith, Kronwall, Ericsson, Green as our defensemen?!?!

WOW!

I am not saying we should keep all of those guys. But does anyone want to bet that at least 11 of them are still here come the 2018/19 season? I would not bet against that. We need to trade to improve, it really is that simple. That is also something that Holland has refused to do up to this point. Trying to build via UFA is much harder and often leaves teams with old high priced vets that are not producing and can't be moved.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

Best thing would be if Mr. I sold the other useless teams and have his focus on making this team a juggernaut again

Why would they? He prints money with the Tigers. 80+ home games that average well over 30k attendance as well as more lucrative TV deals.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Why would they? He prints money with the Tigers. 80+ home games that average well over 30k attendance as well as more lucrative TV deals.

so that he can turn the Wings to the way it used to be again. I think Mr. I can't be happy with first round exits, if the team even makes it. So focussing on one in easier than on three

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

so that he can turn the Wings to the way it used to be again. I think Mr. I can't be happy with first round exits, if the team even makes it. So focussing on one in easier than on three

I agree it would be nice but from the looks of Mr I the last time I saw him speak in public I dont think hes aware of where he is much anymore let alone what the Wings are doing.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The Baseball and NFL team.

He doesn't own the Lions, the Fords do.

[Internet.Unknown 422]

Which would ownership and management prefer?

(A) Make the playoffs, earn millions of dollars in playoff revenue even for a first round loss, and keep the Streak alive.

-or-

(B) Miss the playoffs, end the Streak, and move up 4-6 spots in the draft.

Anyone who thinks the Wings do not prefer option (A) needs to reevaluate.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Which would ownership and management prefer?

(A) Make the playoffs, earn millions of dollars in playoff revenue even for a first round loss, and keep the Streak alive.

-or-

(B) Miss the playoffs, end the Streak, and move up 4-6 spots in the draft.

Anyone who thinks the Wings do not prefer option (A) needs to reevaluate.

I couldn't agree more

[Richdg 267]

so that he can turn the Wings to the way it used to be again. I think Mr. I can't be happy with first round exits, if the team even makes it. So focussing on one in easier than on three

But money or a lack of it isn't our issue. we are the 3rd or 4th best team in the NHL in that area. We make a huge profit every year, well above what we are allowed to spend. if the team was losing money or had limited revenue like Ott or Winn then this might have some merit. But that is not the case. Our issue is the talent level not the bank accounts.

[LeftWinger 5,135]

Well, Ken Holland disagrees...

I'm telling you, hard, HARD cuts need to be made to fix the mess. Ericsson screwed up on at least 3 of those goals. Nyquist is invisible. Kronwall is retarded. Like I said on a different page, there needs to be hard cuts come draft day. We need to cleare cap space in order to have the most available on July 1st.

I am not sure whether I am more mad at Holland or Blashill. We had all the momentum, it got stolen away, no time out, no line mixing, he just kept with the same lines even though nothing was happening in our favor. IMO, Nyquist has played his last game as a Red Wing. I can put Jurco or Pulk in for a fraction of the cap hit and get similar if not better results given the same amount of icetime and linemates.

If we were goiung to blow the streak, then Holland should've traded ALL his pending UFA's at the deadline for picks. Helm has picked it up, which means Holland will re-sign him and at Abby money. He is not worth it. Which also means Helm will be in the top 6 and keep better players on lower lines. AA is consistantly our best player on the ice and he gets rewarded by playing with Richards and Glendening. Those are 4th line players. I though Blashill was going to be better at line combos. He is hot garbage. He just might be our Dave Lewis part 2.

So, trade Ericsson, Nyquist, Howard, another defenseman (Machenko or Smith) and another forward (Jurco or Pulk) at the draft. Go hard after 4 players in July. 2 forwards, 1 defenseman and 1 goalie. Example: Stamkos (doubt it) Backes, Yandle, Enroth or HIller. Honestly if Holland landed Lucic and Backes up front, I think this team would be instantly transformed. Add Yandle to the back end along with subtracting 3 (KFQ included) and the D gets better.

Larkin - Z - Backes

Lucic - Dats - Mantha

Tatar - AA - Jurco

Abby - Sheahan - Glendening

Pulk

Yandle - Dekeyser

Kronwall - Green

XO - Smith (or Marchy)

Renouf

Mrazek

Hiller

It'd be a challenge cap wise, but it sure would be a better team...actually with Franzen on full LTIR the cap would be fine.

Edited March 23, 2016 by LeftWinger

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I agree he needs to forget the Tigers. Royals will own the division for the next 5 years anyway.

[Aethernum 276]

Well, Ken Holland disagrees...

I'm telling you, hard, HARD cuts need to be made to fix the mess. Ericsson screwed up on at least 3 of those goals. Nyquist is invisible. Kronwall is retarded. Like I said on a different page, there needs to be hard cuts come draft day. We need to cleare cap space in order to have the most available on July 1st.

I am not sure whether I am more mad at Holland or Blashill. We had all the momentum, it got stolen away, no time out, no line mixing, he just kept with the same lines even though nothing was happening in our favor. IMO, Nyquist has played his last game as a Red Wing. I can put Jurco or Pulk in for a fraction of the cap hit and get similar if not better results given the same amount of icetime and linemates.

If we were goiung to blow the streak, then Holland should've traded ALL his pending UFA's at the deadline for picks. Helm has picked it up, which means Holland will re-sign him and at Abby money. He is not worth it. Which also means Helm will be in the top 6 and keep better players on lower lines. AA is consistantly our best player on the ice and he gets rewarded by playing with Richards and Glendening. Those are 4th line players. I though Blashill was going to be better at line combos. He is hot garbage. He just might be our Dave Lewis part 2.

So, trade Ericsson, Nyquist, Howard, another defenseman (Machenko or Smith) and another forward (Jurco or Pulk) at the draft. Go hard after 4 players in July. 2 forwards, 1 defenseman and 1 goalie. Example: Stamkos (doubt it) Backes, Yandle, Enroth or HIller. Honestly if Holland landed Lucic and Backes up front, I think this team would be instantly transformed. Add Yandle to the back end along with subtracting 3 (KFQ included) and the D gets better.

Larkin - Z - Backes

Lucic - Dats - Mantha

Tatar - AA - Jurco

Abby - Sheahan - Glendening

Pulk

Yandle - Dekeyser

Kronwall - Green

XO - Smith (or Marchy)

Renouf

Mrazek

Hiller

It'd be a challenge cap wise, but it sure would be a better team...

Right. Okay, let's interrogate this. (LONG POST WARNING)

So next year we'd be on the hook for the following, from your scenario:

Z - $6.083M, Larkin - $0.925M, Dats - $7.5M, Mantha - $0.863M, Tatar - $2.75M, AA - $0.628M, Jurco - $0.9M, Abby - $4.25M, Glendening - $0.628M, Kronwall - $4.75M, Green - $6.0M, Smith - $2.75M, Renouf - $0.767M, Oulette - $0.715M, Kindl - $0.360M (Retained).

Total: $39.869M

And here's everyone we'd have to sign for your scenario, and estimates for their cap hits:

Hiller - (Currently $4.5) : If he is our backup, we can be super generous and say he takes a 25% pay cut, for $3.375M.

Mrazek - (Currently $0.737) : Let's be optimistic and say he gets a two-year bridge contract - a la Howard - for $3M each.

DK - (Currently $2.187) : He's going to get paid top D-Man money - closer to $5M+ per year, but let's assume he gets the same contract as E or Quincey, for $4.25M a year.

Yandle - (Currently $5.25) : A 29-year old D-Man? His salary isn't going down. Safe to say he gets at least his current $5.25M next year (although it's probably more).

Backes - (Currently $4.5) : If he gets to free agency, there will be a bidding war. But we'll be generous and give him only a minor pay raise, for $5.5M per year.

Lucic - (Currently $6.0) : One of the best players in the league, at 27? Someone will overpay, but we'll keep his hit the same for next year: $6M.

Sheahan - (Currently $0.950) : Let's graciously say he gets Helm money, for $2.25M for a few years.

Pulk - (Currently $0.735) : Helm money again here: $2.25M.

Total: $31.875M

Grand Total: $71.744M

So we're already over today's salary cap. And that doesn't include any retained salary from any of the deals we would have to make (trading Howard, E, and Nyquist - even if we only retained 15% of their combined salaries that's another $2.15M), or anything else that we might be on the hook for, including the Weiss buyout (which is another $1M). Just to be clear, retaining 15% of Howard/E/Nyquist's salaries, plus the Weiss deal, already puts us over next year's increased cap.

This scenario also makes a host of unreasonable assumptions about re-signing players next year: DK getting 3rd pairing money? Lucic and Yandle both not getting a pay raise? You know those are not happening. I just did it here to see if the math could ever possibly work (which it basically doesn't). Even if we allowed for those impossibilities, there are a bunch of enormously generous assumptions that could happen, but probably won't - including Mrazek signing a bridge deal, Hiller (or any backup) taking a pay cut, Sheahan and Pulk signing for peanuts. If any single one of those doesn't pan out, it blows up the plan. So yeah, the cap is going up next year. That's great. But look at all the ways this goes wrong. It just doesn't add up.

I'm not saying this to go after you, personally. But it's important for us to recognize that the math doesn't add up. And I'm sick of people on these boards thinking that Holland can wave a magic wand and get anyone he wants for as much or as little as he wants to pay them. I'm sick of people saying it's just a matter of convincing the right people, or having enough guts to make certain signings. I'm sick of people saying "if only we would sign (insert three or four of the best free agents in the NHL) we'd be contenders again". Every team in the league thinks they're two or three players away - and most of them are right. That's not the issue here.

The reason only a handful of teams are consistent contenders is because they're either fortunate enough to have some good young guys playing for nothing who are going to get paid eventually (Teravainen and Panarin playing for under $1 each in Chicago), or the people who they do pay big money are such giants on the ice at this point in their careers that they single-handedly change the game (Ovechkin, Perry/Getzlaf, Toews/Kane, Weber, etc.). And there are only a few of those guys in the entire league with that level of skill, and only for a very limited window. So neither of those methods of success is sustainable - and that's intentional by the NHL. Right now we're in a place where our guys who change the game are getting too old to have the same impact, and our young guys playing for peanuts (Larkin, AA, Mantha) aren't quite developed enough yet to have the same impact. We will be eventually, but these things take time and patience.

So however much we want to win now, the fact is that there are no shortcuts with a salary cap; there is only the mathematical certainty that help is not on the way. Because whatever help is available on the free agency market is bought out by the most desperate team at the most exorbitant prices. And that kind of help is not a long term panacea - it's a short term fix which mortgages the team's future for a slightly better shot at winning now. Do you want that?

We're all so devastated at the mere thought of missing the playoffs once - now imagine that being our reality for a decade. That is what happens to teams that resort to overpaying in free agency. Sure, we might win a Cup, maybe even two. Or we might not. I'd rather stay the course and have faith in our youngsters, that they will develop into the stars we need them to be, and choose to take care of the future.

Take care of the future, and it will take care of the present. It's the gospel for salary cap teams in all sports. Believe in it. I promise your faith will be rewarded.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Aethernum

[VM1138 1,921]

But money or a lack of it isn't our issue. we are the 3rd or 4th best team in the NHL in that area. We make a huge profit every year, well above what we are allowed to spend. if the team was losing money or had limited revenue like Ott or Winn then this might have some merit. But that is not the case. Our issue is the talent level not the bank accounts.

The thing with businesses is that there's never enough money. They could make more money than the rest of the league combined and priority will always be on revenue.

[Dominator2005 558]

Right. Okay, let's interrogate this. So next year we're on the hook for the following:

Z - $6.083M, Larkin - $0.925M, Dats - $7.5M, Mantha - $0.863M, Tatar - $2.75M, AA - $0.628M, Jurco - $0.9M, Abby - $4.25M, Glendening - $0.628M, Kronwall - $4.75M, Green - $6.0M, Smith - $2.75M, Renouf - $0.767M, Oulette - $0.715M, Kindl - $0.360M (Retained).

Total: $39.869M

And here's everyone we'd have to sign for your dream scenario, and their cap hits:

Hiller - (Currently $4.5) : If he is our backup, we can be super generous and say he takes a 25% pay cut, for $3.375M.

Mrazek - (Currently $0.737) : Let's be optimistic and say he gets a two-year bridge contract - a la Howard - for $3M each.

DK - (Currently $2.187) : He's going to get paid top D-Man money - closer to $5M+ per year, but let's assume he gets the same contract as E or Quincey, for $4.25M a year.

Yandle - (Currently $5.25) : A 29-year old D-Man? His salary isn't going down. Safe to say he gets at least his current $5.25M next year (although it's probably more).

Backes - (Currently $4.5) : If he gets to free agency, there will be a bidding war. But we'll be generous and give him only a minor pay raise, for $5.5M per year.

Lucic - (Currently $6.0) : One of the best defensemen in the league, at 27? Someone will overpay, but we'll keep his hit the same for next year: $6M.

Sheahan - (Currently $0.950) : Let's graciously say he gets Helm money, for $2.25M for a few years.

Pulk - (Currently $0.735) : Helm money again here: $2.25M.

Total: $31.875M

Grand Total: $71.744M

So we're already over today's salary cap. And that doesn't include any retained salary from any of the deals we would have to make (trading Howard, E, and Nyquist - even if we only retained 15% of their combined salaries that's another $2.15M), or anything else that we might be on the hook for, including the Weiss buyout (which is another $1M). Just to be clear, retaining 15% of Howard/E/Nyquist's salaries, plus the Weiss deal, already puts us over next year's cap.

This scenario also makes a host of unreasonable assumptions about re-signing players next year: DK getting 3rd pairing money? Lucic and Yandle both not getting a pay raise? You know those are not happening. I just did it here to see if the math could ever possibly work (which it basically doesn't). Even if we allowed for those impossibilities, there are a bunch of enormously generous assumptions that could happen, but probably won't - including Mrazek signing a bridge deal, Hiller (or any backup) taking a pay cut, Sheahan and Pulk signing for peanuts. If any single one of those doesn't pan out, it blows up the plan. So yeah, the cap is going up next year. That's great. But look at all the ways this goes wrong. It just doesn't add up.

I'm not saying this to go after you, personally. But it's important for us to recognize that the math doesn't add up. And I'm sick of people on these boards thinking that Holland can wave a magic wand and get anyone he wants for as much or as little as he wants to pay them. I'm sick of people saying it's just a matter of convincing the right people, or having enough guts to make certain signings. I'm sick of people saying "if only we would sign (insert three or four of the best free agents in the NHL) we'd be contenders again". Every team in the league thinks they're two or three players away - and most of them are right. That's not the issue here.

The reason only a handful of teams are consistent contenders is because they're either fortunate enough to have some good young guys playing for nothing who are going to get paid eventually (Teravainen and Panarin playing for under $1 each in Chicago), or the people who they do pay big money are such giants on the ice at this point in their careers that they single-handedly change the game (Ovechkin, Perry/Getzlaf, Toews/Kane, Weber, etc.). And there are only a few of those guys in the entire league with that level of skill, and only for a very limited window. So neither of those methods of success is sustainable - and that's intentional by the NHL. Right now we're in a place where our guys who change the game are getting too old to have the same impact, and our young guys playing for peanuts (Larkin, AA, Mantha) aren't quite developed enough yet to have the same impact. We will be eventually, but these things take time and patience.

So however much we want to win now, the fact is that there are no shortcuts with a salary cap; there is only the mathematical certainty that help is not on the way. Because whatever help is available on the free agency market is bought out by the most desperate team at the most exorbitant prices. And that kind of help is not a long term panacea - it's a short term fix which mortgages the team's future for a slightly better shot at winning now. Do you want that?

We're all so devastated at the mere thought of missing the playoffs once - now imagine that being our reality for a decade. That is what happens to teams that resort to overpaying in free agency. Sure, we might win a Cup, maybe even two. Or we might not. I'd rather stay the course and have faith in our youngsters, that they will develop into the stars we need them to be, and choose to take care of the future.

Take care of the future, and it will take care of the present. It's the gospel for salary cap teams in all sports. Believe in it. I promise your faith will be rewarded.

Did you listed Lucic as a Def?

Salary cap for the next year should be around $73M

[joesuffP 1,746]

I would go hard after Yandle and I think the offense will sort itself out. Maybe add a depth forward and keep up the kids. Having two guys like Green and Yandle will change the dynamic of the team. Wings can't be an awful defensive and offensive team. These guys may not be great in their own zone but they push offense. Right now our shut down guys don't really shut anything down and they are an offensive black hole. That's why the wings are a bad team. Defense is the #1 problem

DeKeseyer-Green

Kronwall-Yandle

Smith-Marchenko

[kickazz 5,459]

We should go after Lucic.

Lucic would be a game changer for this team. He would be the perfect Winger for Zetterberg IMHO. His meshes really well with Kopitar and we all know Kopitar was the second coming of Hank Zetterberg (their style of play is creepily identical).

Lucic - Zet - Larkin

Abby - Dats - Tatar

Mantha - AA - Jurco (new kind line)

Helm - Glendog - Sheahan

Or Backes.

Edited March 24, 2016 by kickazz

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

We should go after Lucic.

Lucic would be a game changer for this team. He would be the perfect Winger for Zetterberg IMHO. His meshes really well with Kopitar and we all know Kopitar was the second coming of Hank Zetterberg (their style of play is creepily identical).

Lucic - Zet - Larkin

Abby - Dats - Tatar

Mantha - AA - Jurco (new kind line)

Helm - Glendog - Sheahan

Or Backes.

I'm with you on Backes, but I will punch my own self in the face repeatedly at center ice and delay any game from starting if we sign the piece of s*** that is Lucic.