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If one goalie starts the first 41 games of a season then another goalie starts the final 41 games of a season would you call it a tandem situation, or a situation where one goalie was initially labeled starter, then lost the job to the other goalie? Obviously this is an extreme example but it illustrates my point that you can't look at total games played between the two to label them as sharing the net or not. Mrazek started the season as number 1 and as he struggled the situation shifted from a clear starter/backup, to a tandem, and then back to a clear starter except with Howard as the number 1. And as a clear starter/backup situation, as most of the Mrazek passifists repeatedly said this season, yourself included (despite his awful play), the starting goalie should get the majority of starts if he's healthy and ready to go.

"Used Illitch's cash" "Gave Scotty what he wanted" "Inherited the '97 team" So basically, what many people are saying, is that there was no possible way Ken Holland could've received any credit for any team success during his tenure. So how do other GM's do it? Spend their own money? Refuse to discuss and consult with their coaches on current And future strategy/roster moves? It's nothing more than a loaded argument to place exclusive blame on KH for the current situation. Maybe he was too focused on the streak. He probably should've started the rebuild sooner. But to exclude him from any credit at all for at least 2 of the 4 cups is kinda ridiculous. Not many NHL teams have won 20% of the Stanley Cup s in a 20 year span. Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

The bold premise is basically what I said in my sarcastic post above. Simply and solidly put. Thanks. People will say whatever they want to hate on the guy. I mean I'm on the boat that its time to split ways with Holland (once his contract expires in 2018) and get a fresh new look in the franchise, but to discredit the guy and come up with lame arguments is just ridiculous and can be applied to almost any GM in the league. Ultimately the GMs job is to pitch in for deals and agree to what players want (by that I mean meet halfway). If player A wanted to come to Detroit, it's upto Holland to make it happen. Not the other way around. Then by your logic, Hakan Andersson and his scouts get zero credit for 97, 98, 2002 and 2008. Who is this Hakan Andersson guy anyway? A nobody.

What about his role in scouting? If Nill, Yzerman, and Andersson get credit for the Wings in '08, why does Holland get ZERO for '97?

You're really playing with numbers here. Its only 17-15 because Mrazek started the year as the starter meaning that of those 17 starts, like 9 were in the first 12 games. Then when you factor in the time Howard was hurt, its really not close to 50/50. Since Mrazek lost the starting job about a month into the season, Howard has been the bonafide starter while healthy.

Happy Christmas. Hope Santa brings us lots of wins for 2017.

I don't disagree that the last 8 years have been little more than a straight and narrow focus on a meaningless streak. And I also feel as though a front office shakeup could certainly do some good for this franchise. But I also feel as though some people are going way out of their way to place unwarranted blame. Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

Holland gets no/little credit because he wasn't GM. Andersson, Nill, and Yzerman get a lot of credit even though they weren't GM. Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

What I posted was that at some point Mrazek would get a chance to win the job back. Right now is that opportunity as he has 4-6 weeks to likely get 75% of the starts in that time frame. Lets see what he does with this opportunity.

Having a team that will be garbage for three years is a great way to build a fan base, right? Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

Playing his #1 goalie when he got back was the proper way to handle the situation. Sent from my LGLS676 using Tapatalk

Hasek traded himself to Detroit just like Hossa's agent called Holland and asked for a contract. Elite players are easy to get if they voluntarily call you and say they want in.

1) Rumblings stated that Trouba wanted to come here, I dont see him wearing a Wings jersey. My point is that a player can want to go to any team, but a GM is the one that needs to trade for him. 2) I don't understand your point. Hen Holland wanted Luc Robitaille so therefore it doesn't count? 3) Again, Holland is the one who signed Hull and traded for Chelios. As far as them restructuring their contracts, link? I was not aware of this. I googled it and nothing came up.

Yeah I seem to recall reading that they automatically get a top 5 pick somewhere. Must be nice to buy a franchise, pillage other teams players, and get a high first rounder. I find the amount of players allowed to be protected by each team, who spent years drafting and developing and building their roster, to be much too low as well. What is it..10-12 players total or something? I think expansion teams should have to find and sign their own players. There's tons of non-NHL pro players out there, plus unsigned UFA's. And then there's the high first rounder to help out too. Yeah sure, your team will suck for awhile, but that's how it should be. It shouldn't be instantly competitive just because you put down the expansion fee and built an arena.

What exactly are you basing that on? Anything?? Or are you just making stuff up like you usually do?

Well if we want to be honest here: 1. Hasek traded himself to Detroit. 2. KH wanted Luc Robitaille. 3. Brett Hull was signed thanks to Yzerman, Shanahan et Chelios given the fact that they have put a pressure on KH and they even re-structured their contracts to give money to KH.

I did open one present today and it wasn't black coal, it was "White Sand" and I wanted to share it with y'all. It's the latest track from my brother's project "Seven Seas" TPBM will be hosting a Red Wings themed New Year's eve partaaaay

Holland did a lot of the GM duties before officially becoming GM so Bowman could focus on coaching and things like painting locker rooms and complaining about short benches. Saying he doesn't get credit for helping build those teams is ludicrous. So is the argument that he bought any Cups. Other teams spent a ton of cash too, and did nothing. For a good stretch he was the best GM in the NHL. He's slipped though. I don't know if he got complacent, has people above him interfering with him and telling him to do things he doesn't think will work, or if he really believes that the best way to build a team is to sign a bunch of mediocre at best players to 4+ years. Regardless of the reason, he's done a bad job the last few years. Yes, every team goes through bad stretches, and the nature of pro sports is that no team stays on top forever, but his refusal to do a full rebuild is doing nothing but delay them from getting back to the top by extending the mediocre period.

As a GM the guy is in over his head, he never had to do a rebuild so I'm not blaming him for that. Holland should have handed the keys over to the captain, move up as a VP and do this thing the right way after Wings failed to land Suter. Wings need elite prospects to get this team into the next area, right now there are some solid and hopefully 2 very good ones in Mantha and Larkin (also the highest picks). But to get the elite ones a team needs to be bad draft and develop them. It's the current system and until the next cba there is no way around it.

I think its funny that a ton of fans heap praise towards our scouts and guys like Nill and Yzerman during their time in the front office, but then Holland gets 0 cred for the 97 cup? Hadnt he been scouting for us for a while already? Due to the fact that he was promoted he was probably responible for drafting a lot of our best players in the 90s. Guy deserves cred for all our cups post dead wings. What's interesting to me is what Holland does with a (hopefully not) non playoff team. He was handed a tier 1 team the day he became GM, and he managed to continually retool that team and achieve championships and po success despite massive league changes to the way the game is played and to the way the business is run (he deserves godly amounts of praise for this IMO its unheard of in most sports and especially in hockey with the massive amount of evolution weve undergone). But 2010 to now has seen us in slow decline. And if we dont make the post season im very intrigued by what he will do. Despite his many years he has no expierence in this situation, and im freightened that he may not adapt. Personally thou i believe we must give him the chance to rebuild this franchise for at least a few years b4 a firing occurs. He is a great hockey mind afterall and i want to see him operate in a new situation b4 hes canned for being too old school. However i see the otherside of the coin too. Hes had 5+ years to retool us and couldnt. Hes lost touch. Hes also handed out the NTCs that will prevent us from a proper rebuilding. But still i feel he deserves the chance to try. His leadership of this team has given me many great memories and has made me a hockey fan for life. Ill follow this team to the gates of mordor itself. We have fallen into strange times. May the hockey gods have mercy on our souls. Merry christmas wing nerds

I celebrate Kwanza.... Edit: Happy non-denominational winter ritual to everyone

Being very bad, then being contenders for almost 20 years and winning 4 cups, then taking a downturn.....I think any sports fan would be ecstatic to have their team go through this. A true testament to what the Itlitch Family, Devellano, Holland, Bowman, Babs etc. have done for this franchise.

I have always considered the day that Mike and Marion bought the Wings the end of the Dead Wings era. Now that they are barley involved with the team that era has returned......