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krsmith17

Pulkkinen claimed by Minnesota Wild

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4 hours ago, Buppy said:

Highly unlikely that last year decreased his value at all. Maybe dropped a bit with the off-season surgery, but probably much.

Do you really believe that you know better than NHL GMs? Any negative you saw in Pulk, every scout and GM in the league recognized long before. His trade value was never much. If anything, last year prior to his injury would have increased his value. 

While "waste of space" was a popular opinion here, he was playing and producing decently well prior to the injury. 6g, 11p in 23 games, plus excellent advanced stats. That showed that he could in fact translate his game to the NHL (not at the same level, of course, but no one would have expected that). At worst, I'd think the injury and everything afterward just knocked his value back down to where it was after 2015.

The scouts saw weaknesses in him during draft maybe but then he came into the AHL and became the best goal scorer in that league. His value definitely went up while he was in the NHL. Eventually he comes into the NHL and does okay. Babcock doesn't really utilize him. We knew he wasn't likely going to be a top player here, at least not with our coaching system. It would have been better to move him right then and there in 2015, at the very least for a pick, rather than just hanging on... hanging on... hanging on.... and then losing him on waivers. It doesn't take a genius to be preemptive about the situation. Holland isn't an idiot. He just has a loaded/log jammed roster that he's having trouble distributing. I don't think Pulkinnen is in the same boat as Nestrasil, Ferraro, Janmak etc. Pulk was the best goal scorer in the AHL, that's actually a good incentive for any sort of trade. But when you come up to the NHL and get buried on the scratch list consistently,  then prove yourself to be injury prone, that no longer bodes well for your resume. So here we are today. 

 

Far as the stats. 6g, 11p in 23 games and excellent advanced stats with sheltered minutes. I mean the advanced stats were so good that a lot of his numbers were superior to everyone on the roster. Except that he really wasn't superior when it came down to it. 

I've already said ad nauseam that advanced stats and numbers aren't the end all be all. Not without the context of the situation Why? Because Pulkkinen. 

Pulkkinen's advanced stats we're a classic example of an outlier. As someone who is as much into advanced stats as you, you should clearly see his numbers weren't making much sense when compared  to other top players. If I remember correctly, a lot of his advanced stats we're far superior to Datsyuk. And we both know he's not better than Datsyuk. 

 

Edited by kickazz
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It's funny how people are outraged we couldn't trade any of these guys that got waived then they go on to do nothing for the teams that claimed them but that is irrelevant I guess. None of these guys will be sticking around the NHL for long

 

Look at Kindl. Shouldn't we be applauding Holland for snaking Florida?

 

This mess is Holland's fault but it's just a result of desperately trying to make a reasonable trade to upgrade the defense

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2 hours ago, MrazekFanBoy said:

Holland needs to make a significant upgrade to this team over the next year or he needs to be fired.

The Ilitch family will never fire Holland.  

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15 minutes ago, kickazz said:

The scouts saw weaknesses in him during draft maybe but then he came into the AHL and became the best goal scorer in that league. His value definitely went up while he was in the NHL. Eventually he comes into the NHL and does okay. Babcock doesn't really utilize him. We knew he wasn't likely going to be a top player here, at least not with our coaching system. It would have been better to move him right then and there in 2015, at the very least for a pick, rather than just hanging on... hanging on... hanging on.... and then losing him on waivers. It doesn't take a genius to be preemptive about the situation. Holland isn't an idiot. He just has a loaded/log jammed roster that he's having trouble distributing. I don't think Pulkinnen is in the same boat as Nestrasil, Ferraro, Janmak etc. Pulk was the best goal scorer in the AHL, that's actually a good incentive for any sort of trade. But when you come up to the NHL and get buried on the scratch list consistently,  then prove yourself to be injury prone, that no longer bodes well for your resume. So here we are today. 

Far as the stats. 6g, 11p in 23 games and excellent advanced stats with sheltered minutes. I mean the advanced stats were so good that a lot of his numbers were superior to everyone on the roster. Except that he really wasn't superior when it came down to it. 

I've already said ad nauseam that advanced stats and numbers aren't the end all be all. Not without the context of the situation Why? Because Pulkkinen. 

Pulkkinen's advanced stats we're a classic example of an outlier. As someone who is as much into advanced stats as you, you should clearly see his numbers weren't making much sense when compared  to other top players. If I remember correctly, a lot of his advanced stats we're far superior to Datsyuk. And we both know he's not better than Datsyuk. 

I wasn't saying his value didn't increase in the AHL, I said that it was never very high and didn't likely diminish last year. 

14-15 was the year he was dominating in the AHL. In that same year was when he was called up a few different times, so-so performance in a limited role, faded toward the end of the year. I don't think he was ever a healthy scratch under Babs though. He was just sent back to GR. But since those things were happening in the same year, it tempered any increase in value. 

For the first part of last year, prior to his injury, he wasn't being scratched. He was, in fact, playing and producing quite well. That point would have been the peak of his trade value. Dominant in the AHL the previous year, plus starting to produce in the NHL. But then he got injured, struggled to get in the lineup afterward and didn't produce when he did. Lost what value he'd gained in the first part of the year. The off-season surgery maybe hurt him a little.

And "injury prone" isn't very accurate. Prior to last year, his last significant injury was 09-10. 

No one has tried to say advanced stats are the end all. There's no question that his metrics are inflated to some degree. However, his usage was not much different than AAs, or Nyquist and Tatar for much of the year, or literally dozens of other players around the league. But his stats were better than most. Every indication is that he's a strong possession player. Maybe he wouldn't be so strong if facing the best competition on a regular basis, but he'd likely be above average. I wouldn't say he's an outlier. Be he probably is proof that people will dismiss out of hand any stat if doesn't say what they want it to say.

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Pulks was never going to amount to much on the Wings. He dominated the AHL, but once he hit the faster NHL game with much better two way forwards, D, and goaltenders..that was it. He's one dimensional. All he has is a hard shot, and he's not quick enough at getting it off before the opposition D is all over him, or within the split-second opening he has before the opposing goaltender gets into position to block the shot. It will be the same in Minnesota. I do agree losing him for nothing sucks, but no team was willing to even give a low pick for him even if they were low in the order and probably figured they'd chance waivers. Whoever got him got him. That says something. He's not worth any assets at this point, teams would only take him for free.

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12 hours ago, joesuffP said:

It's funny how people are outraged we couldn't trade any of these guys that got waived then they go on to do nothing for the teams that claimed them but that is irrelevant I guess. None of these guys will be sticking around the NHL for long

 

Look at Kindl. Shouldn't we be applauding Holland for snaking Florida?

 

This mess is Holland's fault but it's just a result of desperately trying to make a reasonable trade to upgrade the defense

Yet kindl got a 6th rounder and 2 kids with upside couldn't even get a 7th ? Please 

 

for some reason I'm thinking of that scene from space balls where Rick moranis fakes handshakes with bill pullman's character to grab the ring lol

 

someone is manipulating holland into putting guys on waivers and I'm seeing holland crossing his fingers and that persons just laughing at holland when they get picked ... You felt for it again! Come on man what's wrong with you! Lmao

 

ok it's morning cut me some slack lmao don't know why I thought of that haha 

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11 hours ago, Buppy said:

Every indication is that he's a strong possession player.

Well, which indicators? Yes, possession player when playing against bottom lines (and hell yes, was the only one who was able to possess on 4th), but non-possession player when playing against strong defence. I do really admire advanced stats when showing something not obvious (like for Smith), but Pulkk´s case is vice versa - actually showing something what is actually not true. 

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Taking a step back to cool off and look at this situation for a second, none of these players we've lost through waivers here recently have gone on to be, or ever were projected to be all stars. Pulkkinen had something this team sorely lacked (right hand, booming shot), but never really was given the opportunity to excel at this level. Lets be thankful we're not doing a Boston and losing a guy who is in arguably one of the top 10 fowards in the league today....

I think what bothers me truly is the fact that its bad management and poor decisions which is resulting in us losing players like this. It's not the quality of players, it's more the way we're losing them. For me, (and I'd like to think this is why a lot of anger and frustration is coming toward KH at the moment) its the simple fact that all of these situations were/are avoidable. In trying to find reasoning behind it all, I think KH's hands are sort of tied by ownership here, and maybe we really need to question what's going on behind the scenes instead of just venting at KH for his inability to do things. 

Look at it this way. Ownership has probably said the biggest thing they care about is simply having a winning team and making the playoffs, regardless. If we look at the Tigers (who had a great season thanks to how Dombrowski traded all the pending free agents 2 years ago for excellent prospects who were a core part of the team's success this past season), DD was fired for his trade deadline day sale. You have to think that if KH doesn't keep signing 'veteran plugs' and frees up roster spots for guys like Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA, Sproul and Ouellet to actually play every night and establish their game at the NHL level, it could blow up in his face if the kids don't produce, the Wings miss the playoffs and KH loses his job.  

The same goes for a trade. Say we trade Nyquist and a couple prospects/picks for Trouba, and he struggles? We lose offense and get worse. Not a risk he's willing to take. 

And on the surface, it's incredibly short sighted. Sure, a guy like Vanek has a proven track record and looks like he plays better right now than say AA or Mantha. But in 2 years time? Given the ice time, we all know that both Mantha and AA would be better players, and the organisation would have 2 genuine, young top 9/6 forwards entering their primes HAVING 2 years + of NHL experience instead of being 24/25 and trying to figure out how to thrive in the NHL. 

And it really pisses me off when I hear all these quotes from Blashill and management saying the young guys have to knock someone off the roster or be better than everyone else just to get a job. And that's fine if you're actually going to give them the chance to learn and play at the NHL level. But there isn't actually the opportunity for any of these kids to actually earn it. (the exception was Larkin, but he is for our organisation a generational player) AA getting 6 minutes a night doesn't cut the mustard either. Look at the quotes from Fletcher after the Wild claimed Pulkkinen:

"He's played a top-six role at every level," said Wild general manager Chuck Fletcher. "It remains to be seen whether he can do it at the NHL level, but that's the opportunity we'd like to give him, and we'd certainly like to see if he can do it."

Pulkkinen has played 70 NHL games, and the Wild are giving him the chance to excel and prove what he can do. Where is this philosophy from the Wings? They'd rather have one of Minny's washed up cast offs (Vanek) in hope he can rediscover his magic from 10 years ago when he was lighting it up in Buffalo as a young 20 something player. And if he scores 20, then great. But this is a player who is trending downwards, and we can all objectively see is just holding up a roster spot for Mantha or AA to learn and grow their games at the NHL level. 

And fundamentally, that is the problem plaguing the Wings right now. KH is scared of giving young guys the opportunity because he knows they'll experience growing pains which = losing which = missing the playoffs which = KH losing his job. And in the short term, that means the team won't be as successful. But in the long term it would mean we'd potentially be better. 

But instead, he goes out and signs over the hill veterans (Ott, Vanek) whom he knows will at least play at a respectable level, just enough for us to make the playoffs = KH keeps his job. 

And as a result, it stunts the growth of the organisation because guys who are on the cusp of the NHL (Seriously, how many years have we been talking about Sproul and Ouellette?) don't get the chance to grow their game and we lose them to waivers.....

 

 

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11 hours ago, Buppy said:

I wasn't saying his value didn't increase in the AHL, I said that it was never very high and didn't likely diminish last year. 

14-15 was the year he was dominating in the AHL. In that same year was when he was called up a few different times, so-so performance in a limited role, faded toward the end of the year. I don't think he was ever a healthy scratch under Babs though. He was just sent back to GR. But since those things were happening in the same year, it tempered any increase in value. 

For the first part of last year, prior to his injury, he wasn't being scratched. He was, in fact, playing and producing quite well. That point would have been the peak of his trade value. Dominant in the AHL the previous year, plus starting to produce in the NHL. But then he got injured, struggled to get in the lineup afterward and didn't produce when he did. Lost what value he'd gained in the first part of the year. The off-season surgery maybe hurt him a little.

And "injury prone" isn't very accurate. Prior to last year, his last significant injury was 09-10. 

No one has tried to say advanced stats are the end all. There's no question that his metrics are inflated to some degree. However, his usage was not much different than AAs, or Nyquist and Tatar for much of the year, or literally dozens of other players around the league. But his stats were better than most. Every indication is that he's a strong possession player. Maybe he wouldn't be so strong if facing the best competition on a regular basis, but he'd likely be above average. I wouldn't say he's an outlier. Be he probably is proof that people will dismiss out of hand any stat if doesn't say what they want it to say.

We gotta be careful with exactly what these advanced stats are measuring.  Team shot attempt differential is a loose association with possession at best, and its skewed by a lot of things.  For example, Pulkkinen had a higher percentage of offensive zone starts than any other forward save for Mantha and Cole, who combined played less than half the games Pullkinen did in that time.  He also had very few defensive zone starts in his time with Detroit.  Its much easier for your team to shoot more than your opponent when coach is putting you out there 25 feet from the opponent's net, and 175 feet from your own.  He was also shooting the puck literally any chance he could, whether it was a legitimate scoring opportunity or some ill-advised, low-percentage shot from the boards with no net support.  I wouldn't call Pulkkinen a possession player at all.  In fact he probably raised my blood pressure more than anyone else on the team the last two years because more opportunities seemed to die off his stick than anyone else on the team, and besides for the fact that he was a one-trick pony, I suspect his tendency to end offensive zone opportunity was another reason why he was waived.  But yes I will admit, for the situations he was put on the ice, and the teammates he was put on the ice with, and the opposition he was played against, and the specific instructions he was given to shoot the puck whenever physically possible, when he was on the ice he and his line tended to attempt shots more than the opposition, for whatever that's worth.

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2 hours ago, nyqvististhefuture said:

Yet kindl got a 6th rounder and 2 kids with upside couldn't even get a 7th ? Please 

 

Kindl was moved at the deadline to a team that really needed a defenseman.  Apples and oranges.

And do you REALLY believe that Holland is lying, and that he didn't try to trade them?  I've been as anti-Holland as anyone, I can't believe that. m The fact is Pulk and Frk have limited upside and virtually no value, but because they were Red Wings prospects, fans view them as better than similar players in other organizations.  It's like a mom with an ugly baby who doesn't realize it's an ugly baby, because it's HER baby.

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1 hour ago, DickieDunn said:

Kindl was moved at the deadline to a team that really needed a defenseman.  Apples and oranges.

And do you REALLY believe that Holland is lying, and that he didn't try to trade them?  I've been as anti-Holland as anyone, I can't believe that. m The fact is Pulk and Frk have limited upside and virtually no value, but because they were Red Wings prospects, fans view them as better than similar players in other organizations.  It's like a mom with an ugly baby who doesn't realize it's an ugly baby, because it's HER baby.

Totally agree with this.  I think since most of us (or some) follow the team so closely we often get bias toward our prospects real comparative NHL caliber talent and real street value.  I mean we watch some of these guys when they're in Traverse City at one of our camps and their like 18 years old.  We see/hear/read some positive flashes from these guys and the next thing you know...they're the next up -and-coming Wings superstar.  The NHL now pulls the top players from around the world and no longer a Canadian/USA majority league...Their are only 690 players that can say at any given time that they are on an NHL team.  You may have flashes at Traverse City, you may even play in GR...but the chances are slim that your talented enough to play in the NHL.

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The last two posts were excellent. Problem being most people will just ignore the facts and complain like Frk and Pulks were first liners.

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Pull and frk got picked up cause it costs teams nothing. They are young and have some potential so teams put in a claim because why not. They weren't going to give us a bag of pucks for them, but for free, hey why not. Guys get claimed off waivers every year. It's not superstars getting put on waivers. They way some people act it's like larkin was on waivers or something. 

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Some guy on mlive just said Boudreau is putting Pulkkinen on first line with Koivu..shall be interesting to see if it's true and what he can do!

 

Seems I've been beaten to the punch ;)

Edited by Wings3:16

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20 hours ago, Buppy said:

I wasn't saying his value didn't increase in the AHL, I said that it was never very high and didn't likely diminish last year. 

14-15 was the year he was dominating in the AHL. In that same year was when he was called up a few different times, so-so performance in a limited role, faded toward the end of the year. I don't think he was ever a healthy scratch under Babs though. He was just sent back to GR. But since those things were happening in the same year, it tempered any increase in value. 

For the first part of last year, prior to his injury, he wasn't being scratched. He was, in fact, playing and producing quite well. That point would have been the peak of his trade value. Dominant in the AHL the previous year, plus starting to produce in the NHL. But then he got injured, struggled to get in the lineup afterward and didn't produce when he did. Lost what value he'd gained in the first part of the year. The off-season surgery maybe hurt him a little.

And "injury prone" isn't very accurate. Prior to last year, his last significant injury was 09-10. 

No one has tried to say advanced stats are the end all. There's no question that his metrics are inflated to some degree. However, his usage was not much different than AAs, or Nyquist and Tatar for much of the year, or literally dozens of other players around the league. But his stats were better than most. Every indication is that he's a strong possession player. Maybe he wouldn't be so strong if facing the best competition on a regular basis, but he'd likely be above average. I wouldn't say he's an outlier. Be he probably is proof that people will dismiss out of hand any stat if doesn't say what they want it to say.

Is that exactly what you're going though? Guy gets the least defensive zone starts and starts his shifts against weak opponents and you're labeling him as a "strong possession" player. If we dig into his usage he really did have the least defensive zone starts. Tatar was starting in the defensive zone around 40% of the time while Pulk was starting around 30%. That's very very low. Mostly likely below league average. It doesn't take much to take a faceoff in the offensive zone and shoot on the net to increase your corsi rating. It's much harder to do that when you spend 40 or 50% (like Tatar, Datsyuk)  of the time in your own zone and have to bring the puck to the other end. In fact, Pukkinen has a worse Corsi against per TOI than Tatar and even with LESS defensive zone starts. 

So no, he isn't a "strong possession" player by any means as you say he is. He simply spends most of his time starting his shift on the offensive zone against weaker opponents and happens to shoot a lot. And when looking at corsi against, he's actually worse. So to me that doesn't really translate to strong possession overall. It would be one thing if he had more defensive zone starts and still maintained those corsi for numbers and had better numbers for corsi against. Then one can definitely say that he actually does have the ability to move the length of the ice and has dominant possession, rather than just starting on offensive side and throwing a shot on goal - which I believe is what ends up happening in his case causing his numbers to look good on paper. 

Take a loot at Brenden Smith's defensive zone starts and his corsi rating, then take a look at Niklas Lidstrom's defensive zone starts and his corsi rating. Smith has as good, if not better Corsi than Lidstrom did in his career. Are you telling me Smith is a stronger possession player than Lidstrom was? Or does it mean Smith likely has sheltered minutes? One played 29 minutes a night against the toughest opponents, the other barely plays 16 minutes a night against weaker opponents (whenever possible, because we know quality of competition tends to balance out over the course of the season).

It's likely the latter. Just as with Pulkinnen. Less minutes, sheltered, better opportunities at the start of a shift. 

Edited by kickazz

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1 hour ago, redwingmachine said:

 

Will be very interesting to watch this development.

I love how it says Red Wings Blunder....because Holland is a blundering idiot. We will miss both Pulk and Frk.  Two RH'd shots that we don't have anymore and need on the team.  But hey, maybe Nyquist will score 15 goals this year and Blashill will continue to play Abby in a role he isn't capable of playing.  I like Abby, but he's not top line material. I don't recall ever seeing Pulk last season even given the chance on the top line with Larkin and Zetterberg or Datsyuk.

For those of you that still wonder why no TOP talent UFA's will even consider Detroit....Ken Holland is the answer.

When Jon Drouin told Yzerman to play him or trade him, guess what Yzerman said, I make the rules around here and now look at Drouin.

When Helm told Holland he has offers to play elsewhere, Holland got on his knees, sucked him off, gave him too much AND a NTC, PLUS guaranteed 3rd line or higher minutes. Blashill is now seeing why Babcock left.

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:43 PM, amato said:

blash said pulk was waived so one of mantha or AA could start with the wings.. mantha has been reassigned to GR, so looks like AA starts the season on the roster in the pressbox.

 

Fixed.

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I don't think anybody is saying that Frk or Pulkkinen are future stars, or top line material.  In a nutshell my argument for why losing them sucks is that this lineup (Blashill and Hollands):

Tatar-Neilsen-Z

Abby-Larkin-Sheahan

Nyquist-Helm-Vanek

Ott-Glendening-Miller

AA

Jurco

 

Is worse (AND more expensive) than something like this:

Tatar-Larkin-Abby

Z-Neilsen-Vanek

Nyquist-AA-Mantha

Jurco-Helm-Sheahan

Pulkkinen

Frk

 

So why lose those guys when the alternative is better and cheaper?

 

 

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2 hours ago, redwingmachine said:

They're starting on the first line.  Haula and Koivu have both played with Pookie in international competition, and since Pookie did not go through training camp with them, they're the best chance at having some chemistry with him.
Boudreau will be able to best see what Pookie can do and go from there.  It's not a line that will stay over the course of the season.  They're predicting Staal will center the first line, Koivu the second, and Haula the third.
Haula has started to get noticed.  He was Press Box Boy quite a few times last year, but he is improving.  If they move him permanently to a wing, I'll be surprised, and with Koivu's faceoff abilities, they're not moving him off center.
I would wager that Pookie ends up on the 3rd line with Haula unless Pominville continues to be less than stellar, in which case he may move up to 2nd line.  Coyle will be first line unless something bad happens to him or he slumps badly.

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It just makes it sting a little more because he is starting as a first liner and we got zero for him.  I think what 55fan says makes perfect sense.  I don't see him staying on the 1st.

I wasn’t ready to give up on him just yet.  If he could have just hit the net with even half of those shots he takes then his story could have been very different.

 

 

Edited by redwingmachine

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On 10/11/2016 at 9:28 AM, HockeytownRules19 said:

The same Ferraro who just got waived, frk who has not played 1 game in the NHL, nestrasil who only scored 9 goals last year and pulkkinen who blows

Fire Holland lol

It's like finding junk in your house that isn't worth anything and trying to decide whether it's worth even trying to fix up and use or having a garage sale and selling it for .50 cents to someone who may find minimal usage for it.   All those guys mentioned are underachievers...hard to get something for them when they aren't worth much.  

1 hour ago, 55fan said:

They're starting on the first line.  Haula and Koivu have both played with Pookie in international competition, and since Pookie did not go through training camp with them, they're the best chance at having some chemistry with him.
Boudreau will be able to best see what Pookie can do and go from there.  It's not a line that will stay over the course of the season.  They're predicting Staal will center the first line, Koivu the second, and Haula the third.
Haula has started to get noticed.  He was Press Box Boy quite a few times last year, but he is improving.  If they move him permanently to a wing, I'll be surprised, and with Koivu's faceoff abilities, they're not moving him off center.
I would wager that Pookie ends up on the 3rd line with Haula unless Pominville continues to be less than stellar, in which case he may move up to 2nd line.  Coyle will be first line unless something bad happens to him or he slumps badly.

Redwings blunder? Lol.  I would be willing to wager with anyone on this site that regardless of what line " Pookie" plays on this year he won't score more than 15 goals. 

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1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

I don't think anybody is saying that Frk or Pulkkinen are future stars, or top line material.  In a nutshell my argument for why losing them sucks is that this lineup (Blashill and Hollands):

Tatar-Neilsen-Z

Abby-Larkin-Sheahan

Nyquist-Helm-Vanek

Ott-Glendening-Miller

AA

Jurco

 

Is worse (AND more expensive) than something like this:

Tatar-Larkin-Abby

Z-Neilsen-Vanek

Nyquist-AA-Mantha

Jurco-Helm-Sheahan

Pulkkinen

Frk

 

So why lose those guys when the alternative is better and cheaper?

 

 

This post just nails it.

 

There is zero upside to Miller and Ott.  Once that 4th line is playing against real NHLers, we will see it struggle mightily.  Miller and Ott would not make the roster of any other NHL franchise. And they should not make the Red Wings roster either.  Goal scoring is this team's problem.  We lost one of our best to Russia.  We lost 2 others to Waivers.  And we sent the other one down to the minors.  This is just absurd.

http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2016/10/11/red-wings-fans-arent-happy-with-ken-holland/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs&yptr=yahoo

A lot of people are unhappy with Ken Holland.

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I'm not sure why people don't understand how stupid this is.  Andrej Nestrasil, for example, scored roughly as many points last year in 55 games as Drew Miller and Steve Ott have in their last 200 combined games.  He's younger, bigger, and cheaper too.  He's quantitatively better at the game of hockey than they are.  So while losing him doesn't amount to anything earth shattering, the fact of the matter is that we are currently paying MORE money for worse players than we would be if we had simply done nothing at all. 

None of Pulkkinen, Frk, Ferraro, Nestrasil or anyone else needs to be a budding superstar to validate their spot on our roster.  They only need to be better than someone who's currently on it.  In most of those cases they are. 

I can't believe how cavalier people are being about the fact that our GM seems content to ice a WORSE roster than he has to.  For more money (while we're over the cap). It's absurd. 

Holland's Red Wings are getting as bad as Team USA was in the World Cup.  He genuinely believes that things like heart, and grit, and moxie, and pluck, and gumption, are to be valued MORE (in some cases) than being good at hockey is.  I'd understand if the choice was Pulkkinen vs. Helm, or Frk vs. Jurco.  But it wasn't.  It  was Pulkkinen and Frk vs. Miller and Ott.  Neither one of which has any value to our team which isn't surpassed by someone else who was already a regular on the team.  They aren't good defensively, they aren't good penalty killers, they don't provide speed, or energy, or skill, or anything at all.  They are, at this point in their careers, nothing more than Cory Emmerton was during his.  A plug.  And not even a cheap one. 

 

A fourth line of Jurco-Helm-Sheahan, or Bertuzzi-Helm-Sheahan, can do ALL  the things Ott-Glendening-Miller can do.  Only better.  And we could ice that lineup more cheaply by inserting guys on ELCs on the third line and as the healthy scratches. 

Edited by kipwinger
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3 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I'm not sure why people don't understand how stupid this is.  Andrej Nestrasil, for example, scored roughly as many points last year in 55 games as Drew Miller and Steve Ott have in their last 200 combined games.  He's younger, bigger, and cheaper too.  He's quantitatively better at the game of hockey than they are.  So while losing him doesn't amount to anything earth shattering, the fact of the matter is that we are currently paying MORE money for worse players than we would be if we had simply done nothing at all. 

None of Pulkkinen, Frk, Ferraro, Nestrasil or anyone else needs to be a budding superstar to validate their spot on our roster.  They only need to be better than someone who's currently on it.  In most of those cases they are. 

I can't believe how cavalier people are being about the fact that our GM seems content to ice a WORSE roster than he has to.  For more money (while we're over the cap). It's absurd. 

I dont disagree with you, but I will give a perspective that Ken Kal gave on the radio yesterday. He feels (or at least says) that the OMG line gives the Wings something that they have not had in years which is a tough and gritty 4th line that they can role out and give themselves another dimension.

Personally I wish they didn't sign them either, but I can understand this line of thinking as people have been complaining about how soft we are for years.

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3 minutes ago, kliq said:

I dont disagree with you, but I will give a perspective that Ken Kal gave on the radio yesterday. He feels (or at least says) that the OMG line gives the Wings something that they have not had in years which is a tough and gritty 4th line that they can role out and give themselves another dimension.

Personally I wish they didn't sign them either, but I can understand this line of thinking as people have been complaining about how soft we are for years.

Ken Kal is just carrying water for the organization.  First of all, Ott-Glendening-Miller isn't all that tough.  We're not talking about Clutterbuck-Cizikas-Martin here.  They're only marginally more "gritty" than average and probably LESS gritty than a line of Sheahan-Helm-Callahan/Bertuzzi/Jurco/Nestrasil would be.  Secondly, who cares about "grit" if it means you're getting trapped in your own zone and getting scored on all the time.  Ott, Miller, and Glendening are AWFUL at getting the puck out of their zone.  Quantitatively.  They're amongst the worst players in the entire league in terms of CA/60.  So unless someone can tell me how to "grit" the puck out of the back of your net I'd say that's just a bulls*** excuse to agree with the status quo by Ken Kal. 

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