Leaderboard

i'll preface this post with this: i've never played hockey and i don't know much about the intricacies of contracts and all the little details. i'm just a wings fan. but i love this move. so much so that i'm posting on this board for the first time in years, just because i want to get it off my chest. my wife is pretty much sick of my e mails on the subject by now. regardless of if we had signed parise or suter, i think i'd still have been more geeked over the tootoo signing. even though he may be nowhere near as technically skilled. i don't think 1.3 million is much at all. not for the bomb that is about to go off at joe louis when he takes the ice. i think his impact will make the 1.3 million seem like a good bargain when it's said and done. i like it for these reasons. 1. he goes all out all the time. babcock is always whining about "going to the net more" and putting the puck on goal. i think he's gonna get that with tootoo. he's not good enough to be fancy. he goes straight ahead full speed ahead all the time. i think babcock will like him despite himself. 2. he's pretty much fearless. he instantly has a role. the first time somebody runs over hank or datsyuk, everybody's gonna be looking expectantly at tootoo. and he's almost certain to respond. the days of shea webber ramming zetterberg's head into the wall repeatedly with no fear of consequences are over. there will be consequences. he might lose fights, but one thing is certain: he's not backing down. i am looking forward to that. and i think our top stars are gonna appreciate it as well. 3. he's only 27, and his numbers aren't getting worse. at the end of three years, he's still in his prime. 30 points? it's not out of the question. neither is 40 at some point. we're getting a hockey player. not a goon. tootoo can play every shift every game. how many wings games against nashville has he played well against us? somebody besides me must like him. he's been on the same team that drafted him for 8 years. it's not like he was such a jerk that he wore out his welcome. read a predators forum. their fans aren't exactly thrilled he's going to detroit. it's not like, "good riddance!" it's more like, "uh oh." i realize that tootoo can walk the fine line and go over it. he's not the first guy. he won't be the last. does he leave his feet sometimes? does kronwall? the difference is that when the other teams go berzerk over a tootoo hit, he stands there and states his case. kronwall will skate away. people make more of a few hits than what it is. vladdy was and is one of my favorite wings. he wasn't exactly known around the league as mr. clean. tootoo is what he is. he's going to play hard. he's gonna give a lot of effort. he's gonna crash into a lot of people. he's going to stand up for his new teammates. i think he's going to blend in just fine for all of those reasons. i think he adds instant excitement and i can't understand how people don't like this move. i think he's a cheap difference maker. i think he gives the fourth line some umph. i think he gives the whole team some snarl. i think he's going to add more spark than bonfires. in the end, i think his new teammates, and the fans, are going to love him. he's fearless and he gives max effort. i'll take that. he's youngish. he's tested. the fact that he's sort of the "anti-babcock wing" is a good thing, imo. not a bad thing. i'm tired of seeing the wings get pushed around in the playoffs. tootoo will push back.

Come back, Nick.

So every bad personnel decision is Hollands fault, and every good one is Scotty Bowman's. Got it.

We'll have McKee and Bodin in a few years...no worries about big and strong hitters... Of course LIdstrom is gonna work for the Wings over there, did anyone expect anything else? You know what I want? Someone in Russia finding the next Fedorov/Datsyuk... side note: without bumping it, I am sure glad the Suter/Parise threads are dropping off the first page....looking forward to the Kronwalling!

If Bowman's influence were so substantial and so grand, then the Blackhawks would be a much better team right now. Some of you are far too intent on finding someone to blame.

I will take big fast and nasty from any country

Nah dude, Holland is God. We're just spoiled, entitled fans. esteef

Can we get some people on record calling Cleary dead weight, so when he bounces back and has another 20 goal year, you can all eat crow? The guy is a warrior who gives it his all night in and night out and was still one of our best forwards come playoff time DESPITE playing on knees that were basically held together by twine and bubble gum... He had successful surgery and will come back with a bang this year, mark my words, and you can even bookmark this post.

Let's take a look at the resume' of one Ken Holland from July 2008 to now. July 2008 is when Scotty Bowman left our then great organization to work alongside his son in the Blackhawks front-office (I'm not sure of the exact date, so I'll just include all the things that happened that month on Holland's post-Bowman resume'). There are those here who believe that Bowman's role in our organization as an advisor was not a large one, but I am certainly not one of those fans. I think that Holland having Bowman to go to for advice made a very significant difference in a lot of things around here; and I think that we should all at least take a look at Ken Holland's post-Bowman resume'. Significant Draft Picks (that have played in at least one NHL game...the 2008 draft was in June): -2009: Tomas Tatar (9 career games, 1 goal, 1 point) -2010: Riley Sheahan (1 career game, 4 penalty minutes) -2011: -2012: ...10 games, 1 point and 4 penalty minutes out of our last three drafts (and 0 playoff games). That's not good. I know it takes time to develop young players in general. I know that we draft especially young players. I know that we like to take an especially long time to develop them. And I know that we've got some other potentially promising prospects in the system that we've drafted since then - Cale Jarnrkrok(2010), Teemu Pulkkinen(2010), Petr Mrazek(2010) and Tomas Jurco(2011). But still, it's not good. There are other NHL teams that have drafted significant contributors late since 2009. And how much are we really expecting of the aforementioned prospects anyways? I won't hold this against Ken Holland for the reasons stated above, but his post-Bowman drafting has certainly not yet shown itself to be a positive. That much is fair. Significant Free Agent Signings: -2008/2009: M. Hossa, T. Conklin -2009/2010: T. Bertuzzi, D. Miller, P. Eaves, J. Williams. -2010/2011: R. Salei, M. Modano -2011/2012: I. White -2012/2013: D. Brunner, M. Samuelsson, J. Tootoo, J. Gustavsson ...Man, underwhelming, isn't it? The Hossa signing was a great one for sure. But it was him and his agent that sought us out, not the other way around. The Ian White signing I thought was great, but not an enormous impact-signing. The Bertuzzi signing was okay I guess. Salei was a solid signing, for the price, as a sixth D. Miller is a solid depth guy. Eaves would be, albeit an overpaid one, if he was healthy. Conklin was okay as a backup. Williams and Modano didn't pan out. The one's this off-season we'll have to wait and see on. But man, honestly, in the last five seasons White is really the only significant addition that we've made to the team through FA. Certainly a negative for Holland here thus far. Significant Trades: -2008/2009: -2009/2010: -2010/2011: V. Leino for O. Tollefsen -2011/2012: 1st round pick for K. Quincey -2012/2013: ...The Leino trade was obviously a horrific one. IMO, the Quincey one was a waste of a pick as well (he's not very..good). Certainly another negative for Holland here thus far. Results: -2008/2009: Stanley Cup Finals Losers. -2009/2010: Second round exit. -2010/2011: Second round exit. -2011/2012: First round exit. -2012/2013: ...Seems we're just getting worse and worse, losing more and adding less, with each passing season since Bowman left. Cooincidence? I think not. ***** Here's a new way to evaluate Holland's performance here since Bowman left: How has he replaced what we've lost from the 2008 Stanley Cup Championship team he inherited? It might not be an all-inclusive method of evaluation, but it's certainly an angle that's at least worth looking at. *Keep in mind that we're talking about the player we had IN 2008...and then what we have now. Forwards: J. Hudler----------D. Brunner. I'll have to see it to believe it, but from what we've been told, Brunner now shouldn't be much of a drop-off from Hudler of 08. T. Holmstrom----------G. Nyquist. Very, very different players, but I really, really like Nyquist, so I'll dare to again say "not much of a drop-off." K. Draper----------J. Abdelkader. Abby might never be what Draper was, but isn't much worse now than Draper was in 08...aside from faceoffs. Not much of a drop-off. D. Drake----------T. Bertuzzi. Again, very different players. Drake did some things Bert doesn't. Bert does some things Drake didn't. Not much of a drop-off. D. McCarty----------J. Tootoo. Tootoo's not the intimidator McCarty was, even in 08. McCarty wasn't the skater that Tootoo is. Not much of a drop-off. K. Maltby----------D. Miller. See the Draper/Abdelkader comparision. Not much of a drop-off. M. Hartigan----------P. Eaves. Probably the one instance amongst the forwards of actual improvement. Too bad it's the 14th forward. Defensemen: N. Lidstrom----------J. Ericsson. I won't even dignify this by attempting to compare. B. Rafalski----------I. White. Not even close. B. Stuart----------K. Quincey. Not really close. A. Lilja----------B. Smith. Perhaps an improvement? B. Lebda----------J. Kindl. How in the world do you not improve over Lebda in 4 seasons? C. Chelios----------??? Goalies: C. Osgood----------J. Howard. Not quite there yet. But not that far off either. D. Hasek----------J. Gustavsson. Backup goalies don't matter enough to get into this one. In general: 1) The forward group remains more or less the same, though older. I'd say that age has had more of a negative impact than development has had a positive impact. 2) The defensive group has been completely wiped out and not even close to replaced in most cases. 3) The goalies are more or less the same. So, there you have it. That's what Ken Holland's done. Hasn't improved anything since he's been here. Has let us get A LOT worse on the back end. That's it. All there is to it. Bottom line. Period.

i think he's going to play. he's not going to sit around passively letting some other guy play. he'll effort his way into the lineup. i think babcock is going to love him. i was checking him out on youtube and there's a clip where he runs over ryan miller from buffalo. dirty hit. but so audacious that it made me laugh. the first time i saw it, i was kind of horrified. by the third time, i was laughing. by the 10th time. . . lets just say i found it so audacious that it was amusing. i'd like to know the story behind that hit. did buffalo cheap shot a preds star earlier in the game? or is tootoo just crazy?

^ I agree too...too ( ) I don't understand the hate for this guy...27, in his prime, coming off a career year (30 points) he can only help us, as long as Babcock plays him...

Is that you Don Cherry?

Hence acquiring Bobby Ryan...adding Shane Doan only helps this team...This guy can and will score 30+ goals playing with Pav or Z...Ryan scoring 40 is not unrealistic. Bobby Ryan is 24...trade for him then in three years tie him up for the rest of his career...Parise who? to ANA : Val Filppula, Jan Mursak, Tomas Tatar, 2nd round pick to DET : Bobby Ryan it's almost explains itself....sign Doan, Kubina, Q if the price is right... Roll On! (Getzlaf, Perry, Weber available next July) What do you mean? He offered Suter less money so he could play for your team....he did it for you!

Take what picks? If the Wings don't accept the arbitrated salary, is he not a UFA? And he can't be offer-sheeted after filing for arbitration. Furthermore, do you really believe that anybody would give a first and a third up for him anyways? The Wings paid a premium because it was the deadline, there are now similar options available for nothing. We're not getting any picks, and we need Quincey.

Seriously, there's still time for the Captain to bail us out on this one.

It sounds like he'll be following up on draftees. According to Google translate, anyway:

I think its pretty obvious now that the main FA left that Holland is targeting is Doan, especially considering all his "we need veteran leadership comments". While he's a great player, can someone please explain to me why we need him of all people? I just don't get it. Veteran leadership? Most of our core team are seasoned veterans! Datsyuk - 33 Zetterberg - 31 Franzen - 32 Kronwall - 31 Bertuzzi - 37 Sammy - 36 Clearly - 33 Given this, it seems we have plenty of veteran leadership and I just fail to see what Doan could possibly provide except some toughness and some more goals. We should be trying to get younger, trying to get a sniper to play wing with Pav. Another 35+ player on a team of aging veterans? I just don't get it.....

Ok, you said it "HE WOULD BE A SOLID SECOND CENTER..." that is what Anaheim wants in return...nobody is s***ting on Filppula. But you are not going to get Bobby Ryan for our 13-16th forwards in trade...geez! Anaheim wold not take Franzine from us...they want Filppula. Filppula almost guarantees Selanne returns for another year, he has said for awhile now he wants to play with Flip. Filppula is both our trump card and the key to this trade...I too would rather trade Franzine before Flip....or niether at all and just give them five 13th forwards for Ryan, but it doesn't work that way... Filppulla/Mursak/Tatar/Draft Pick should get it done. Great 2nd line center and two NHL ready prospects...we will not miss those two guys...first of all we'd have Bobby frickin Ryan and our stable is still full of younsters: Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Frk, Sheahan, Sproul, Tvrdon, Athanasiou, Bodin, McKee...the future will be fine!

all the naysayers on here are ending our season already? Holland isn't done... Doan is still there, there was just a report that Holland is in the hunt of Bobby Ryan, so it's not like we have sunk to the deepest depths of the Central division. I would say if Holland got Ryan, Doan and Kubina, other than Suter being better than most of our D, and honestly, I would put Kronwall right up there with him...Kronner had 37 points being on the 2nd pairing, Suter had 46 points on the 1st pairing...when it comes to hitting, Kronwall eats him up all day. I would give Suter the nod defensively, but other than that, pretty equal...except when it comes to pay... Parise actually had better centers in NJ. Koivu is really good, but there is only room for one leftwing on his line and Heatley will start bitching if he gets bumped off of it...he is the f***in allstar you know... It's not like I am saying they aren't any better, of course these two makes them tons better, but I think Parise scores less in Minny than he did in NJ...I could be wrong, but we will see. I am more afraid of the Blues (:puke: oh....excuse me that just snuck up on me) than I am of the Wild... They are not in the central so we won't see them as much as I'd like, but no, I am not afraid. As long as Holland isn't done. Ryan, Doan, Kubina and I think Holland is ready to roll... FORWARDS Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m) Shane Doan ($5.750m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m) Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m) Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m) Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / DEFENSEMEN Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.000m) Kyle Quincey ($3.550m) / Ian White ($2.875m) Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) / GOALTENDERS Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m) ------ CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter) (these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion) SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,383,712; BONUSES: $462,500 CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,816,288 It's not as pretty as having Parise and Suter on there, but it's still a very VERY good roster...

An excellent point made here by Pierre Lebrun at ESPN which should give Wings fans much hope some good players could show up yet: In the end, Detroit has another avenue: wait it out until the new collective bargaining agreement is signed, sealed and delivered. Several teams I’ve spoken with over the past few weeks believe there will be bargains to be had on good players come September, October or November -- whenever there’s a new CBA -- because some overspending teams will have miscalculated and will need to get rid of players to get under the new cap. At least a half-dozen teams I know of are waiting for this. Detroit could benefit from that as well. Much more on the Wings and a good read in general: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/18230/debate-wither-the-wings-and-rick-nash?

How much will you donate to a charity of the community's choice if you're wrong?

Merged. There's a thread for The Next Move, there's a thread for Chill People, We Have Options, there's a thread for what Holland shouldn't do next. Everybody please take a look at those existing threads before creating a new one to see if it fits in any of those. We've been letting a lot of them go but are starting to get too many threads that are all basically speculating on what to do now after losing out on Parise and Suter.

get to know him on the ice. people complaining about this signing, who else could have any videos made like this whose played for the wings recently. Drake is the only one thats a maybe

HockeyyInsiderr is a DoucheyyIdiott

People need to relax. Tootoo put up 30 points this past season which is more than anyone in our bottom 6 and hes also a legit tough player that the wings needed. I would have rathered Prust but for the price and role Tootoo is fine. Now that hes sober he isnt that bad. You all chirp him but wait til he runs over a few guys and youll all love him. Solid signing. Tootoo - Helm - Abdelkader is going to be a nasty line