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Anyone who thinks Mantha or AA has a chance of making the opening night roster barring injuries hasn't been paying attention for the last 7 years

This guy will probably help this small market team grow some more. Preds really were the winners in this trade. For both on-ice and off-ice reasons.

I live about 45 minutes from Nashville, for the fans and the community, be it a seemingly small one, I hope he does well here and it draws more fans to the sport. It may even get me out to my first Preds game, I've lived here 3 years, maybe it's about time. I'm personally a big fan of the guy, he has a big heart, a big personality, and was overwhelmingly charitable for his community when playing in Montreal. He's good for the sport, plain and simple. I hope he's well received in Tennessee.

Despite all the flak he gets (and likely myself too because I'm bringing it up) but Darren Helm was that guy in the first half of his career. He would get short handed breakaways on a regular basis. Might not convert on most of them, but at the very least if you're skating the puck down into the other zone I would call that effective penalty killing. I am 100% on board with Helm getting some more PK time along with some of these younger kids who are a threat to tilt the ice in the opposite direction.

The PK under Babcock was fine up until 2011 or so. Things started changing to more passive/ "shot block to save a goal" bullcrap once we started transitioning from Datsyuk/Zetterberg to Miller, Eaves, then Glendening. It's fine, we didn't have anyone to fill in for D and Z's role. But now with Larkin, AA, and Helm signed for 5 years, there is absolutely no excuse not to use capable speedy, skilled players on the PK. One thing I liked about Draper more than Glendening/Miller was not only was Draper a good defensive 3rd/4th liner but the guy knew how to drive offense and often times converted his PK time into offensive opportunities. His 21 shorthanded goals and Selke trophy as a damn 4th liner (unheard of) speaks for itself.

It's always really tough for me in debates like this because we haven't seen a lot of the guys who have received the honors. I surely didn't watch Gordie play 20+ full seasons, Or a full season for half of the other names hanging in the rafters. What truly makes a legend worthy of being permanently enshrined in team history that no other player can wear their number again? I've been watching since about 1989-1990 when I was old enough to really follow and enjoy the sport. There are two absolutely firm, undeniable champions of this team, and they were Yzerman and Lidstrom. If I am going to war, I want Yzerman as my General. If we are being invaded, I want Lidstrom on the front lines of defense. Both guys, for me, were slam dunks and unquestionable. I'm not sure I feel that way about any of the 4 in debate in this thread, but if there were one, the most impactful, the most statistically superior and significant, it would be Osgood. You also need to consider that you are stacking one goalie against 18 skaters on each team, and the rarity of having a goaltender outshine the other 18 players on the ice is uncommon. 30 starting goalies compared to 540 skaters each season (obviously not considering call-ups, injuries, changes in starting roles, etc.) My point being, it's a bigger feat to be a difference maker in net compared to being a difference maker as a skater. In the record books, for wins, playoff wins, if there is a true Red Wing goaltender in the entire history of the team, as both an onlooker looking at the statistics, and a fan of the team that witnessed the accomplishments, he is the 2nd greatest Red Wings goaltender in the history of this team. He wasn't flashy, he had his bad moments (and awful ones) but who hasn't? Do I personally think he deserves it? Yes. Will he receive the honor? I truly don't know. A case can be made for all 4 of these players.

That's an excellent article. It is funny that Brodeur and Roy get a pass for playing on stacked, multiple cup winning teams, but Osgood always get's accused of padding his stats because he played for the Red Wings. The guy has more playoff wins then JACQUES ******* PLANTE!!!

Helm is and has been one of the better penalty killers ever since he entered the league, aside from those couple injury riddled seasons... When I was doing up my ideal penalty killing units, I was forgetting about Nielsen too. You always need more than 4 or 5 PK forwards anyway, so I'd throw him into the mix along with Sheahan and Abdelkader as well...

thats typically been my philosophy.

What about the old argument that if you have to debate it, that means that person shouldn't be in the rafters?

Both are contributing factors. If you don't have skilled players on the penalty kill, you should play it safe. The problem is, we have the skilled players to put on the penalty kill, so that we don't have to play it safe... Of course, the main objective of a penalty kill, is to... kill the penalty, but being aggressive can lead to much more than a successful penalty kill. Aggressiveness will lead to scoring opportunities going the other way, and on occasion, that will lead to short-handed goals... I just hate the sit-back, passive approach, where all we're trying to do is get in lanes and block shots. Be more aggressive and when an opportunity presents itself, you take it. But in order to do that, you need the right guys on the ice, aka skilled players, not "gritty" players...

I think the lack of short handed goals is as much higher a result of the play it safe and don't take risks strategy of Babs and Blash. They need to turn some of these guys loose instead of making them play like robots.

Not the pairings necessarily that I agree with on WIIM, but the point they drive home is important. Our PK is nothing but garbage shot blocking. We need to change that and make it more of a threat to the opposing team like it once used to be. Doug Houda turned Patrice Bergeron and Marchand into excellent PKers (Marchand has 19 SH goals... jesus). I hope he brings that philosophy here.

Well would you look at that. WIIM writes a nice article about exactly what Krsmith and I have said ad nauseum. https://www.google.com/amp/www.wingingitinmotown.com/platform/amp/2016/7/19/12207888/setting-an-ideal-red-wings-penalty-kill-for-2016-17?client=safari#

I have to admit the defense is kind of a different story. I think management really values size on the backend, at least from their defensive defenseman. If someone came to training camp and was outstanding offensively I think they would be on the fast track to the lineup though. New defense couch could make things interesting? DD, Smith and Marchenko entering their primes it would change the team if they could have breakthrough seasons, then the outlook would be a lot different. Smith especially. It would be such a huge boost if he could become an impact player

I'd give my opinion on Hasek vs Roy vs Brodeur but Puckloo might call to have me lynched. I couldn't vote because solely Osgood wasn't an option. I wasn't even a big fan of the guy, but it's very hard to deny the numbers he put up for the team as a whole, and it's about individual team effort, heart, and contribution that puts you among the legends in the rafters.

It doesn't matter who plays the best in pre-season. Last pre-season Nick Jensen was the best dman during every game he played. Where'd that get him? Yep, and it'll get him waived this year...

It's not BS, you can say that as many times as you want. If Mantha comes out in preseason and shows he is one of the best players on the Wings in games AND in practice and does all the little things right, I believe he gets a top 6 role, Miller/Ott get waived, and Jurco becomes a healthy scratch. He plays ok, or good, then yes I think he will be sent down. Like Kickazz said, last year Larkin made the team because Datsyuk was hurt and he played well, but when Datsyuk came back the Wings had no choice then to keep him. I do believe that when all things are equal, the Wings will choose the vet, but if a kid shows he is clearly better, I believe in 2016 they will choose the kid unless we are talking a really tight roster situation which I dont think we have now given that the ramifications are waiving Miller and or Ott. If the ramifications were waiving Jurco for example, then yes I dont see them doing it either. In years past maybe things would be different, but this is a much younger team then we have ever had post dead wings era.

Because history has shown that 99% of the time the kid loses the roster spot even if he out plays vets.

Larkin was in the line up for two reasons. One he did well in training camp and two to try to fill the hole left by Datsyuk's injury. It's a completely different scenario heading into this year. There are no injuries yet.

AA has earned his spot. There might not be one available for him though. There was a spot available for Larkin because Datsyuk started the season injured. People seem to forget that.

Bob Essensa Ken Wregget Vincent Riendeau Glen Hanlon Allan Bester

Yzerman was an explosive player in his prime. Great speed and hands. He also had a great shot. He was a lot more physically gifted than Lidstrom.

Opinions are opinions, but personal attacks and name calling is against site rules. We are teetering on the line here, i'm not going to edit anything, but keep it toned down and contribute intelligently. If your best rebuttal is "your opinion is stupid because I said so", or referring to someone's post as "stupid" or "garbage" then just refrain from posting altogether. This is considered "trolling" or intentionally trying to stir people up needlessly. Keep it in line. Thanks.

This is getting to Bill like for me to continue debating. I will just say this, when I said that I dont like it when people are blind by legend, I was referring to instances when people say things like "Datsyuk is nowhere near the player Abel was". When you are talking Gordie Howe, and you call is 6 hart trophies and utter domination of an era "stupid s***" and "trivial garbage" either you are trolling, or just not intelligent enough to understand.