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Yeah, I think Kindl should be moved and the kids should get to fight over that 6D spot, with the understanding that each of them will likely get a look in that role at some point in the season and that the inevitable injuries could blow things wide open. I might even try Marchenko with Kronwall. I like Smith with Kronwall, but we're basing that on a small sample size. Can Smith go up against the opposition's best every night, all season long? (Not that I'm sure Marchenko can. Just an idea.) Ideally, Ericsson is on the second or third pairing. That's just the kind of defenseman he is. I do like his size for our top four, though, and his $4.25M cap hit would, at some point, have the kids thinking, "Well s***, if being a steady #5 can get me that much..." That's Dave Tippett, but it could just as easily be Mike Babcock or Darryl Sutter. It's the new school, popularized by the Wings teams of '08 and '09 and, more recently, the Kings. When someone asks Darryl Sutter what it is about his team that makes them so good defensively, and he deadpans that it's easy when your team is never forced to defend, he's not joking. And he's right. Erik Karlsson isn't a stud in his end, but there's more to being a defenseman than defending. P.K. Subban isn't a stud in his end, but there's more to being a defenseman than defending. Datsyuk isn't a 50-goal scorer, but there's more to being an elite 1C than scoring goals. When our top three was Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, we didn't spend time in our end and therefore never had to defend. And it wasn't just that we'd "get the puck out." The second we regained possession (i.e. pretty much any time we had the puck, anywhere on the ice), we were thinking attack. We moved northward with poise and purpose and precision and propulsive, predatory intent. It wasn't "We escaped from our zone!" It was "Here comes the boom." Our breakouts, our rushes, our transition game - everything was about being on the offensive. That was the foundation of our game. That was the key to our dominance. That was Red Wings hockey. We lost it, we haven't meaningfully addressed the loss, and now, accordingly, we're losers. Mike Green, while maybe not ideal, would be a step in the right direction. He'd give us something we don't have and sorely need. Saying he can't play defense is missing the point. Saying Kindl can move the puck is missing the point. Saying we have some promising kids who might be top-four material in a few years is missing the point. We have three years left with Datsyuk. What's keeping us from giving him a legitimate shot at another Cup is the fact that our defense doesn't generate any offense, doesn't move the puck especially well at all.

Edit: I was laughing so hard I had some premature postage. Giroux was just trying to congratulate the officer BoS style--with butt pats!

Guys, I am as pissed off as most Red Wings fans today out of our lack of ability to sign (any) big name free agents, and even more pissed off that our only substantial move was re-signing Kyle Quincey to a contract that pays him as much money as Jonathan Ericsson, more money than Johan Franzen and only 0.5 Million less than Nick Kronwall makes (still a top 10 defenceman in the league). But as much as we can complain about Quincey, and predict that next season will be a complete disaster - I am seeing more and more tank for McDavid posts - I ask myself when did Matt Niskanen become worthy of a 7 year contract? Isn't Dan Boyle 37 years old coming off a 36 point season on a great team where he was a -8? Why did the world end when we didn't sign these two? Lets just try to use some perspective before we completely turn our backs... Last season, in a 16 team conference - we finished 1 point behind 6th place PHI and 3 points behind 5th place NYR (who eventually played in the Stanley Cup Final) while having an historically bad (by our standards) record of 5-9 in the shootout. More importantly, we also had our top 3 forwards (when measured by salary) D, Z and Weiss miss 37, 37, and 56 games respectively. I hate to make excuses, but of the 6 teams in our conference that had more points than us last year, not a single one of them could relate to our injury situation (in terms of man games lost to star players). For ex. the top 6 scorers on the Boston Bruins all played in atleast 78 games, and 5 of them played in 80 or more - please don't tell me this would not have helped us or improved our position in the standings. If we look ahead to next season - what do we have to be optimistic about? Well, we haven't really gotten worse since last year... No we haven't signed any big names either, but we still haven't lost anyone yet. (Alfie remains to be seen). Can you say the same about... #1 BOSTON - Subtractions: Thornton, Iginla, Meszaros, Moore. Additions: None. #2 PITTSBURGH - Subtractions: Jokinen, Vitale, Orpik, Glass, Engelland, Niskanen, Conner. Additions: Comeau, Ehrhoff. #3 TAMPA BAY - Subtractions: Lindback, Aulie, Desjardins. Additions: Nabokov, Boyle, Blunden, Stralman. #4 MONTREAL - Subtractions: Briere, Gorges, Vanek, Gionta, Blunden, Dubnyk. Additions: Parenteau, Gilbert, Malholtra. #5 NEW YORK - Subtractions: Pouliot, Stralman, Richards, Boyle, Bickel. Additions: Hunwick, Glass, Kostka, D. Boyle. #6 PHILADELPHIA - Subtractions: None. Additions: Jones. The point here is that outside of Tampa Bay, the 5/6 teams that had more points than we did last season have not improved either - and to take it a step further, I certainly feel that Boston, Pittsburgh, Montreal, and the NYR have all regressed. In terms of teams within striking distance who have also improved, NJ and WSH certainly stand alone. When you consider the possibility of a healthy team, the emergence and continued development of our younger players, the cap room and prospect pool we have to acquire pieces (which Holland MUST use at this point) and the lack of improved teams conference wide + number of teams in our division who have taken a step back (BOS, MTL, TOR, OTT,) I don't think the sky is falling as fast as it seems.

Byfuglien could drink the entire NHL under the table, and then drive his boat home.

I like kicking the tires, here's why: Everytime there is a Belle Tire anything I imagine their sponsorship is solely there to allow Ken Holland to spend his off hours in their stores kicking all their tires.

I think I'd be like Matt Moulson and go to Buffalo. I mean, what a well run organization with great history and how about those mild Buffalo winters? Or I think I'd be like Niskanen. Not worry about money and go to a team on the cusp with such great fans and storied history like the Caps. Or maybe I'd think like Ryan Miller and go to the Canucks. Now there's a team that's got their s*** together!

These may not all be exact quotes, but you get the gist of what they're about. We've heard them on LGW a million times and made jokes about them. I was just wondering what your favorite is? I'll begin with my favorite. "We like our team"

Since it's the offseason and also because of what's been going on since the free agent signings, it's a good time to remind everyone of some of the forum rules. I've posted a few warnings in threads but wanted to put a reminder where everyone will see it. From the forum rules: · DO post a link reference (or cite the TV/radio source) when reporting breaking news, reports, etc. Threads started without this information may be deleted or moved. When posting a trade or signing, please provide a link to a reputable source as confirmation. This time of year people often make fake twitter accounts so make sure the tweet you're linking to is a verified account from a reputable source. · DO post constructively. If you can't add anything meaningful to a discussion, don't bother. Before hitting reply, just take a second to think about what impact your post will have on the discussion. Is it making it better or worse? · DON'T post duplicate topics. Before posting your new thread be sure to check the first two pages of the forum to make sure the topic isn't already being discussed. Multiple violations of this rule by a single member is punishable by temporary suspension from the forums. · DON'T post false and/or misleading topics. Members caught doing so will be banned IMMEDIATELY with NO chance of reinstatement. The punishment may seem severe but if people start posting fake trade threads, the forum becomes total chaos. LGW should be a resource for solid hockey talk and information. · DO refrain from using vulgar language. There is a curse/bad word filter currently on the forum and members that purposely attempt to circumvent this filter will be subject to a suspension of account privileges. No alternate spellings. No blanking some of the letters. Let the profanity filter do its job. · DON'T personally attack other members. This includes name-calling, flame-baiting, etc.. If you can't discuss your point with maturity then don't discuss it. People that violate this rule will be dealt with swiftly. In short, debate the content of someone's argument, not the person themselves. This includes broad insults against people on this forum and their level of fandom. Like it or not, complaining about the Red Wings can be on topic. If you don't like it, don't read it. If they've clearly violated forum rules, report it to bring it to a moderators attention. If you really don't like anything a person here has to say, you can put that member on your ignore list. As I've said before, this forum relies entirely on content generated from its members. You are all the authors of this forum, so it will only be as good or bad as you make it. The ultimate goal of all of these rules is not to punish people, but to make LGW a source of lively, respectful, informed discussion. Thanks! (link to the full forum rules for reference) http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

Just one of those things where 2 players do not mesh. Can't be explained, but sometimes it happens. Quincey is good defensively, it just took him a frustratingly long time to show that. He also put up points a little more consistently once he got over the all around awfulness. Not saying he was scoring a lot, but he chipped in from time to time. My guess he is either paired with Dekeyser or he is on the 3rd pairing while still playing 20 minutes per game. I also still think a trade happens to bring in the puck mover we all wanna see. Keeping Quincey just gives Holland flexibility in making the right deal. Whether that be during the summer, or during the season. In the end, he couldn't go into the season with 2 rookies on defense. And really, who else out there is as solid as Quincey was before returning to Detroit? Sure they could have gotten someone else. But what's to say they wouldn't struggle like Quincey has while adjusting to a new team? He overpaid for less risk. But being just 2 years, it's fine. I'd understand the fury if it were a longer deal at that price. But at 2 years, he isn't hurting the team. He is a capable defenseman. Not the ideal signing, but reliable when you look passed the early struggles. This is not an old man Sammy contract. That contract was far worse.

ALL OF THEM! Everything Holland says in trying to explain his job has become laughable. It makes him seem lost and out-of-touch, even if he really isn't. (I think he is.) The "kids/mans league", "hockey store", and not knowing why players aren't coming here really take the cake. One thing for which I've given Holland a lot of credit is that he trusts his people (assistants, scouts, etc). He doesn't seem to be one who just does what he wants and leaves the rest of the room shaking their heads. IMO that's part of being a successful leader. However, with the gradual exodus of front-office talent, there really isn't anyone to listen to anymore... which helps explain the lack of quality moves, excluding the drafting, of course...

My favorite... all time and probably forever... "Kids are not the answer" It just has a ring to it after what Nyquist, Tats and Sheahan showed us weeks later. The irony is still hilarious to me. I also like "It's a tough league"

I could have made $100 million dollars if I hadn't broke my foot...

I guess you'd have to ask the players. I'd guess it's different for all players. I'm sure for some, it's location. For others, it's purely who offers the most cash/years for the most financial security. Some want to play for a certain coach or with certain other players.

I think there is plenty to be excited

Young guys had to step up HUGE at the end of last year. Nyquist isn't going to score every game when teams start keying in on him because Hank & Pavs are out with injury. The kids are gamers. They will infuse drive in the rest of the team and we should be much better with them all starting on the same page together at camp.

Look folks, free agents signed with Washington, Florida, Buffalo, NYI, Pittsburgh, Vancouver, etc. Not all of those places have perfect living conditions, up and coming teams, or ideal management. I'm as disappointed as everyone else is, but I don't think it's one "thing" or that "all free agents" are avoiding Detroit because of the condition of the city or that the team is somehow not competitive any more. If that's the case, would anyone sign with any of those other teams? That said, I do think it may be a possibility that Ken Holland may be lowballing or may overestimate the "We're the Red Wings" card, but some of these things being speculated about seem so far out there. I also think it's far too early to be heaping praise upon Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman. Their teams were both eliminated in the first round, just like the Red Wings. Just because they made signings and trades doesn't necessarily mean they will pan out or look good a few years from now.

Holland is the no-brainer, not the contract.

We blew it with Yzerman, turns out he's becoming a pretty good GM. Look at the wheeling and dealing he's done this past week, very impressive. Although I think the St Louis fiasco could have been avoided, he managed to get a good deal out of it. I doubt he will come back to Detroit with the 4 year contract he has with Tampa. Jim Nill in 2 seasons has turned Dallas around. Meanwhile, Babs and Kenny are still looking for that mythical free agent tree, unable to make a trade while droning on about how these are different times as every serious cup contender made some kind of move to better their team. Any wonder no one wants to come to Detroit?

I agree it's not why people aren't signing here but I didn't see anything in that article "dis detroit" as a city..? I've heard that players don't like babs but that they also respect him as a coach... I don't think he's lost the locker room, but I could be wrong.There are different reasons players haven't been signing here and they all seem personal to the player, not pinnable to one thing about the red wings' organization. I'm not worried about it though.. the growth of the kids is enough to get me excited about each season and I'm pretty excited to see a healthy weiss.. he can be a difference maker on the ice. although I am of course hoping for that elusive right handed top 4 d-man....

If I have to listen to one more person whose never been to Michigan dis Detroit, I'm going to scream. I actually moved here last year over Chicago because I have the opportunity to own a house. Detroit is not why FAs aren't signing. Something is very wrong with this team, be it the team vibe, the coach or management. From what I've heard from insiders (people who actually work with the team) Babcock has lost the locker room. Until we figure out the problem and solve it, there will be rough times ahead. And if the GM can't diagnosis the problem then perhaps he needs a new job.

Nice to know we can't even have 1 single thread now without it becoming a Holland basher. On topic, this is hilarious. Is there something in the water in Philly?

Hahaha Claude took the term the town of brotherly love a little too seriously Richards and and Carter are proud

While you've probably opened another can of worms within which people can keep the fire Holland trend going, I have to say, I couldn't agree with you more. As one of the few people around here who seem to actually be optimistic about this coming season, it's refreshing to see other with a similar opinion.

I think the Front office has got a little too comfortable. Wouldn't hurt to shake things up.

It may seem impressive. But Shaman only deals in worst case scenarios and sooner or later some sort of “dastardly deed” has to come along.