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Here's the thing about all those Kings prospects you listed: Brown - drafted 13th overall 2003 Kopitar - drafted 11th overall 2005 Doughty - drafted 2nd overall 2008 Johnson - drafted 3rd overall 2005 Simmonds - drafted 61st overall 2007 Quick - drafted 72nd overall 2005 That's four key players who were drafted 13th overall or lower in the space of 5 years. The Wings are lucky (as we all know) if we even get a first round pick. I think what I'm trying to point out is that these guys is that due to their draft position they were already well heralded, hyped and great things were expected of them. Our guys? Was anyone really saying that Datsyuk was going to be the hall of fame caliber player he is back in 1998? Right now the only guy in our prospect pool who might even come close to what those guys from the Kings had is Mantha - yet we still don't even know what we'll get from him as there's a chance he might not even play in the NHL this season. Personally, I think what we've seen is a philosophy change from KH and the management team - build up the prospect ranks, re-stock the farm, and slowly integrate those kids into bigger roles in the NHL to compliment and support the big guns so that the team grows while also remaining competitive. Once we have the kind of team that KH believes can compete for the cup, then I think we'll start seeing a few trades to bring in guys that will help maintain that goal. A bit like the Stuart trade before we won in 08. I'm guessing here, but I reckon people don't like that because we all want to win now, and on the surface it looks like this team has been going backwards - 1 playoff round win in 3 years. Personally I think this team is moving forward - even with Cleary, and I think the Wings took the biggest step last year. They've established that an entire 3rd line of kids are good enough and ready enough to not only take NHL jobs, but also contribute in a big way. And thus, the philosophy is working. The kids we're drafting and developing are turning into legitimate NHLers. The task I think now is just getting healthy and letting everyone play together so the Wings can evaluate what we truly have, how good everyone is, and what pieces need to be added to make the Wings a cup competitor. But I guess that takes time, and not everyone is happy about that.

Ha! I knew you'd respond! I've been low on sleep the past couple days and as result I haven't been communicating my ideas very well. The Kings had a very strong foundation set in 2009; most of the key players on the Cup team were already there on the night of that Lidstrom game. About Kopitar specifically - I remember thinking at some point in late 2009 (around the time of this game, actually) that he looked a lot like a younger, bigger Zetterberg. Everyone knew he was special. And, hell, I'm actually one of those people who hates when people say the Kings won the Cup as an 8th seed and so all you have to do is get into the dance and anything can happen. But - and maybe this doesn't apply to Kings fans - I don't remember many people saying, "The Kings willl be dynasty-good in a few years," back in 2009. That's all I was really saying. As for our prospects - I'm no professional scout or expert judge of talent or Hockey Insider, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night like to think I know my Wings prospects. Not puffing my chest, just saying I don't get all my learnin' from Hockey's Future. I really, truly believe we can be a contender in two or three years, if we play our cards the right way. *sigh*

Holland like any other GM makes lots of moves I either hate or don't understand but at the end of the day I still think he's the best GM in the history of hockey. If ANY GM has earned enough trust to see a team through a rebuild its Holland.

Things I will give Ken Holland full credit for: -Restocking the prospect shelves. Let's face it, the drafting was pretty hit and miss during the early to mid 2000's. Kenny doesn't get full credit here, but he was part of turning around the prospect pool. -Being smart with prospect progression. I know a lot of people hate the whole overripe thing, but Nyquist and Tatar are examples of players who have greatly benefited from gaining experience in the minors. -Signing younger players to solid deals. I think his "bridge deals" are a real positive. Guys like Zetterberg, Filppula and Kronwall all got them, now it's guys like Tatar and most likely Nyquist next year. He seems to be good with the younger player's deals. -Rebuilding on the fly. Most teams need to tank, sell off their assets and completely alter their team. Detroit's managed to keep their superstars, and nearly all of their promising young players while staying competitive. Whatever your definition of competitive is, Detroit hasn't been a basement dweller - that's a plus in my eyes. Things I don't think are Ken Holland's fault: -Missing out on big name free agents. The salary cap has changed the playing field in the NHL, but I also think that the attitudes of players have changed. It's almost as if they want teams to chase them. The whole Suter thing was mind-boggling to me. You're a GM and you get on a plane to go talk to a player? Guys wanting to play in their hometowns, with their best friends, etc. is out of Ken's hands, I think. Does he need to change his approach, perhaps? It's a situation now where players want three things: comfort, comradery and cap hit. The one thing Kenny can control is giving out money, so luring players here is going to be a matter of over payment, I think. Things I want to slap Ken Holland for: -Misguided loyalty to veteran players. The list of players could go on and on, but we know the deal here. -Bringing back familiar talent. I think you can also accuse Kenny of playing it "too safe" here. Bringing back talent to take the places of prospects he feels aren't ready yet. It's kind of a double-edged sword, but at times I think Kenny holds guys back too much. It was great for Gus and Tatar to stay down, but then the team also had that mess at the beginning of the year with Bert, Sammy and Cleary taking up spots. -Poor judgement with trades and contracts. The Quincey and Legwand trades still bother me. Giving out 3 million dollar, NTC contracts to 35+ year-old vets, and a 4.25 million dollar contract to a pylon. All things considered, I don't think there's another guy for the job right now, but that doesn't mean I think Kenny is totally effective in his post. He's done a lot of great things for this team, and recently some not-so-great things. If he could just alter his approach to trading, I think he would be totally set. This team is entering a situation where the star players will be done in a few seasons, and there's quite a bit of talent waiting in the wings to take their place. The question is, which guys are going to become legitimate superstars, and what is Kenny going to do with the excess talent? I think Nyquist, Mantha, Jurco and Tatar all have potential to be star forwards on this team, DeKeyser, Ouellet and Sproul strike me as the future of the blueline, but who knows what will happen when they're not insulated anymore. Kenny's going to have some big decisions to make with the talent on this team, and they're going to determine if this entire "rebuild on the fly" process was really effective or not.

Alfie is a future hall of famer. Even at 40 he scored 18 goals and 49pts in 68 games. A player who hasn't played a game in the NHL and had 1 really good year in college hockey is better than him? That's a big leap of faith to me.

Very classy move by Danny Cleary. This video seems to highlight why the Wings felt he is such a great locker room presence. Huge kudos for putting up the donation information and putting together a professionally done video that may end up getting some airplay down the road to help the cause.

Dan Cleary accepted the challenge. I like that he put up the info for donating online. I haven't seen anyone do that yet.

Wait. Chicago gets a second for failing to sign one of it's draft picks, and we get nothing for having half of our front office stolen?

Wyatt Arndt‏@TheStanchion Fun Fact: Bettman used the tears of fans in his ice bucket challenge. pic.twitter.com/qUeXmQz8oX Earl Sleek‏@earlsleek Since he's proving to be such a good sport, I nominate Gary Bettman for the #NextTimeTheCBAExpiresStartTheSeasonOnTimeChallenge

The LGW'ers need to get on board in honor of our buddy, T. Low

Yes because the team he inherited won all those games....It obviously never changed....we never acquired or drafted anyone good....oh right let me guess....someone else gets all the credit for that...

I'm so sick of that Kings argument, this was a team most people had as a cup favorite before the season. They underarchieved during the season, fired their coach and in typical kingsstyle put everything together when it counted --> playoffs. Lombardi saw flaws fixed them and brought the team two stanley cups. With UFAs not wanting to come here, some of the prospects soon need to turn into first pairing defensemen and others are expected to at least soften the blow Pasha and soon after Zetterbergs retirement will cause this team. Also I don't buy this we are making moves once the team is ready excuses anymore, we got Hossa because he basically offered himself by signing a one year contract. Holland sadly has become very very cautious in terms of improving a team and now we are seeing more and more the results of that. After Niskanen, Ehrhoff went elsewhere most would have been fine with staying put, creating some cap space and let the youth play and what happens ? He overpays and re-signs a borderline second pairing defenseman for 8,5 million, brings back a player who is done and will soon bring back one with another sore back and for what ? Just to keep a stupid streak alive, I gladly let the streak end if it means letting the youth play and if some don't plan out ppackage them for veteran help (not for 2 months of service....) Even Babcock said that the team is not going into the right direction, so sorry but I don't see the point in icing an exact same roster again and the healthy excuse more than done.

number9 pretty much answered the question exactly how I was going to. I never said in my original statement that Holland has kept the Wings Cup favourites during the re-build, I said he has kept them competitive. You asked me to define competitive...okay: The 2013 playoffs. I believe that taking out a #2 seeded Anaheim Ducks, and then being a goal away from taking out the #1 seed Chicago Blackhawks can be classified as "competitive". Yes the Wings have been the #7 and #8 seeds respectfully in the last couple seasons, but i think its safe to say that if they weren't littered with injuries, they could have been right there in the thick of things with teams like Tampa Bay, Montreal, NYR, and Philly. Even with the injuries look how close we were.....Montreal had 100 points this year, TB had 101, and we still had 93. If we literately won 4 more games out of the 82 played this year, we finish 101 points and are #2 or #3 in the division. Again, im not saying we are elite, or favourites, but definetely competetive, this is the NHL in 2014....parody. Yes we are not Boston, Chicago or LA, but we are right there with the teams below, and as the playoffs showed with Bos vs Mon, Det vs Chi 2013, LA in 2012, etc. if you get in anything can happen. I do believe we were "competitive". What do I define as not being "competitive": Buffalo, Florida, Calgary, NYI, Edmonton etc. Like everyone else here I wish the Wings were still cup favourites, but we're not. We are rebuilding, but with the exception of one bad playoff round in the last 2 years I feel we have definetely been "competitive". As far as "how is Holland trying"......I think NOT trading the kids is his way of tyring to build for the future, while NOT trading D & Z for more prospects, and signing Alfie last year are a couple examples his way of trying to keep the Wings competitive now. Even the Cleary signing.....as much as I hate it and wish Cleary retired, I believe Holland did this because he was fulfilling a promise he made to Cleary last year when Cleary turned down the Philly deal of 3 years, 9mil. (the promise last year was Hollands mistake, not the signing this year) If Holland reneges on his promise and doesnt sign Cleary, this is something players remember. And to do it to a guy who has sacrificed his body and is a locker room leader/loved by the guys could have had long term ramifications. Point being, Holland isnt perfect and I'm not trying to say he is. But I do believe he is "trying".

Straw man argument. I'm not saying every prospect will turn out in a great way. I'm saying I believe we have what we need to complement the existing core and win one more Cup with Datsyuk. Beyond that, it's truly anyone's guess.

UGH. I hate what this re-signing has done to people's (myself included) perception of Cleary. That video just made me want to hug him and beg him to retire. Also, did anyone else notice he referred to himself as "Danny?"

Boyd Devereaux? I remember they called the line something like 2 kids and an old goat. Or am I missing some type of sarcasm here lol

Wings fans are over-passionate and unrealistic so not surprised to see the negative reaction here. There are 30 teams all vying for the same goal and yet if the Wings don't win a cup every 3 or 4 years then the GM is a failure? The large majority of the teams in this league would give their left nut to have Holland at the helm. Good signing, I don't agree with everything he's done, especially in recent years...but this team is positioned with a strong farm and should have a bright future.

I'm with you on this, 100%. I'm just saying: if we're talking about Lidstrom being a guy you can't replace and that fact meaning the entire team had to be re-evaluated and whatnot...I think Holland's done what he should've done, which is focus on the farm instead of becoming Paul Holmgren. Not that it's "draft and develop or become Paul Holmgren." But you know what I'm saying. I think Holland's walked a pretty fine line between trying to make immediate improvements and trying to re-stock mostly empty cupboards. I normally don't put much stock in futures, but I'm very, very high on what we have in the pipeline, largely because I think our player development is second-to-none.

I really do believe every team who makes the playoffs is competitive for the cup. Are our chances as good as say Chicago, Boston, or LA? No. But there's 26 other teams in a similar position as us, or in a worse one. It's going to be a few years before we are a true powerhouse again, but the fact that we are still making it to the show in the mean time is pretty darn good, and hard for any GM to do.

Is this a thread where all of LGW is in agreement on our problems moving the puck? The inability of our D to make a pass under pressure? The number of board battles our wingers lose in their own zone? The lack of righties? Check, check and check. Quincey is the king of passing the puck into his partners skates, Kindl won't take a hit to make a play. Smith got a lot better when he was taken away from Quincey and gained the confidence to start skating the puck out of the zone. Lashoff just chips it out (the "safe" play) which means the puck just comes straight back at us.

Holland has been with us since 94 I believe, but still doesn't get any credit. Nill doesn't even work for us anymore and he sometimes still gets credit. Baffles me. Actually the most shocking thing to me is how shocking this is to some people (Holland being reupped)

This is true to some extent. However, lets look at some of the people whom some fans wanted as GM of the Wings instead of Holland. Yzerman - So far, he has done well at Tampa Bay. Their roster this year looks better than last year. Except since he took over, they made the playoffs their first year, missed the second year and third year, and then made it last year only to get swept in the first round. Better than Holland? That remains to be seen. Ray Shero would be the only guy I would even consider being GM of the Wings. If his job is to ensure that we have a competitive team that competes for a championship every season, he has achieved his goal. If you are measuring accountability by championship or nothing, then there are 29 other GMs who are also failing.

Exactly. People remember the two mistakes Stuart made in Game 7, but not how many shots he blocked that playoff run or 2008 on the PK, let alone all of his years in Detroit. Or how not a single Wings d-man besides maybe E has come close to matching Stuart's PK ability since then. Physical, sound defensively and the ideal partner to complement Kronwall. Kronner really was able to contribute at a higher level offensively and play more aggressively with Stuart there to cover for him. It was the perfect deadline acquisition to put the 2008 team over the top. I know there isn't much positive history for comparison, but for me that is easily Holland's best trade since the lockout.

Booooooring. Tomas Tatar could do that drunk.

Well the old way was just getting him hurt so why not try a different training trick? Or we can see it as he is healthy and that's a good thing(trying to be positive)