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if we seriously have a shot at Gusev, we need to get him here! Vegas has to give him up. it shouldn't even cost us Berggren. Hell, Toronto had to give up a 1st just to dump Marleau. our 2020 2nd round pick (considering it should be in the 30's) should get him here. I'd be ok with that. we've got a ton of prospects, we woul dnt miss one 2nd.

From 2008 through 2015, there were 35 skaters drafted in the first 5 picks of the 2nd round. 17 of them failed to make it in the NHL. (A few more may make that list, but are still young) 15 of them range from fringe NHLers (who may yet drop to the fail list) to decent depth players 1 was Slava Voynov, who was good but retarded The last two are Ryan O'Reilly and Sebastian Aho. So... 2 stars, 1 wife beater, 15 nobodies, 17 failures, and 0 unknowns. So even if you count all the KHLers who never tried the NHL as failures, and for some weird reason being drafted in the first round means you don't count, and for some weirder reason this is all happening in an alternate universe where Datsyuk and Demitra were drafted in the first round... Gusev STILL has DOUBLE the chance of being a star than an early 2nd round pick does.

I assume Gusev has waited until he's exactly 27 partially to avoid an ELC? I'm unclear on the rules on this, but I assume after 26 (the RFA cutoff) you don't have to sign ELC's anymore? However, I wouldn't mind some bonus heavy contract like Panarin originally signed with Chicago. Give him say 2 years at $4 mil baseline, with the ability to earn up to $6 mil depending on points and games played.

Okay, now do this comparison for second round picks

You realize we had over $20 million in cap space this year? The way things are looking we may be under the cap even without using any LTIR for Zetterberg and Franzen. We could have easily signed Panarin and still afforded big raises for AA, Mantha, and Bert. Could have afforded Panarin and Trouba in fact, without even dumping salary. Bad as they might be, those contracts are not hurting us.

Yeah I don't think you get a 1st. The Prize here is the rights to Gusev. A good contract dump to attach to Gusev could be Clarkson. Pretty sure I read somewhere that Yzerman said everyone's healthy.

We have cap space and low expectations for the next 2-3 years. We can afford to gamble.

TROUBA lol and they call me a troll... LOL

Since 2008-09, 25 players have scored 1.1 points/game or more in the KHL. Seven of them, including Gusev, have never really tried the NHL. A few played a handful of games in NA, but nothing significant. Another seven tried for at least half a season, with a few trying for multiple years, but never made any impact. One had an ok NHL career, with 219 points in 451 games. The other 10 are: Alexei Yashin, Pavol Demitra, Pavel Datsyuk, Ilya Kovalchuk, Alex Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, Nicklas Backstrom, Alexander Radulov, Artemi Panarin, and Evgeni Dadonov. So...10 stars, 1 mediocre player, 7 fails, and 7 unknowns.

Okay, it's probably, at the very least, just as foolish for you to project him at a lower NHL point total. Given that two separate projections that do this type of stuff all the time put him above 50 points, I'm going to side with them over your assumption. He's worth a second round pick, easy.

You wont give up a 2nd rounder for a high percentage 2nd line winger. Its ridiculous.

How about Moritz Seider Nikita Gusev

OK fersure man. This is a classic example of one of your paragraphs of thought I didn't wanna get bogged down in... You start it by mentioning he's never played an NHL game before for the 1000th time (WE KNOW, neither has Berggren, it's not forwarding the discussion and I'm not gonna address over n over). That somehow transitions into his age, then how he's gonna ditch us in 2 years, then how Russians only want money, then how we're not winning s*** in 2 years, then but if we get him in a package you like it's ok, then how he's nearly 30 (actually turns 27 in about a week), and then you end it all by reminding us he hasn't played in the NHL yet AGAIN. I'm not saying you don't have some points in there. I'm saying you're so scattered I have to break down your text walls line by line to address your points. You need to organize your thoughts in an approachable way. But you haven't so I will respectfully just drop it and walk away. Peace.

I wish I knew the answer to that! For Helm and Abdelkader, I think it comes down to misplaced loyalty and a poor assessment of their actual value. Holland clearly overestimated what these guys brought to the table. Abdelkader was coming off a good year, but he was playing with Datsyuk and Zetterberg and getting PP time. Of course he's going to put up some points. The guy is a grinder though, nothing more. I compare him at that time to someone like Zach Hyman on the Leafs. He plays on the top line, but his role is to fore check and create space for the big guns. He's a third line guy that works hard, and who has happened to find a spot on the top unit. Both he and the Leafs know what he really is though and he gets paid accordingly. At his very best, Helm might have passed for a 3rd-line C, but he got paid like a top-shelf 3C / low-end 2C . Right now I'd say he's a really good 4C, but not much more than that. Again, I think loyalty played a lot into it.

You have a hell of a lot more patience than me... This is all this guy ever does. Goes on random tangents and strawmans every argument...

Hey, friend, I like you, but It's honestly impossible to argue with you sometimes. I say this most respectively. You call KRSmith crazy but you're all over the place here... You're diverging into rambling tagents and peripheral issues. I've already addressed and made my point clear on many of these things, you've just re-presented them in new fashion. Again, most respectively, lets approach each thing one at a time. I'd love to continue the discussion, I just don't want to diverge into rambling where we re-hash the same stuff over n over. Ya know? It takes an ungodly amount of time for me to break down the discussion each time, I just wanna be productive when we discuss, and approach each point head on. I hope that's fair? I'll try to address each of your points. I'd appreciate if you can respond in a similar fashion. Anything you have beef with just quote it directly and respond to it. It's easy, just respond to the quote and delete what you don't wanna respond to and hit quote again to reopen a new brand new quote box for the next thing. Again, full respect on the table, I just don't wanna waste either of our time. I understand your point. It's a valid one. Why aren't we after Ryan Lasch if Panarin is so good? Because dominate players in the SHL or NLA are not as good as players in the KHL.There's a reason the KHL translation factor is about 80% of the NHL, and the SHL is only 59% of the NHL. I'll expand on that. Nikita Gusev is also a prominent international player. In not so similar fashion Ryan Lasch doesn't play for team USA at the Olympics. Nikita Gusev is in a small group of players that are extremely good that are not in the NHL. This group probably includes Dastyuk as well, Kovalchuk was there not so long ago as well. That's sort of the weird enigma of Russia. But I've talked about this already. I even offered up Shipachyov, a failed Russian high flyer, for discussion. Please keep on point. You're strawmanning here. I never said all 2nds should be traded. I also didn't say we should dismiss them all bc of a 40% success rate. If you're gonna lean on fallacy arguments this will go nowhere The rest of the paragraph I'm honestly lost. Kaliyev has nothing to do with the discussion. I'd love to keep going but lets keep things on topic. I'm confused. Most players are entering their prime around 25, 26, 27, 28, do you disagree? You act like like he's old, I wouldn't agree at all. Again you're going into all sorts of nonsense about Ryno, Eakins, and Reeves. Lets keep this pointed... This is why I asked if you knew anything about him prior to recently. This is a tremendous hockey player we're talking about. You're acting like you've never watched the Olympics before. I assume you have. Everyone's seen this guy play. He's not Ryan Lasch or Nigel Dawes. He's top line coveted material. You sound like someone who thought we wasted a draft pick on Fedorov in 89 to be honest lol. 27 =/= 30 27 is young in the NHL lol Love how you avoided my questions btw. Would you trade our 2020 2nd for Dzingel straight up? Or will you always avoid this question?

https://wingsnation.com/2019/07/02/red-wings-reportedly-showing-interest-in-nikita-gusev/

Anyone can bust, we agree there, but there is a tremendous difference between a player who is literally the best player in a foreign league and a player who is often the 13th forward on their foreign team. Can you acknowledge that? Berggren is young and may turn out to be a good player one day, but he also may not. 2nd round picks only have about a 40% success rate of ever making the NHL. With Gusev development is over. He's a tremendous hockey player. You're getting a player who is going to contribute to your team. The only question is in what capacity. 40 pts or 80 pts? 0 NHL experience applies to both players. I'm very confused as to why you think that fact is relevant to your argument? It's pretty safe to say Gusev is more talented than most of the NHL. His international play is evidence of that. I'm not saying you're fersure getting the next Panarin, but I am saying you're getting an NHL caliber player. You can't say that about Berggren. Slow down and reel it in. You're all over the place. Svech, Ras, Zadina have no bearing to the topic. I'm almost always going to favor improving the roster. Especially in the offseason. If you're trying to convince me that we shouldn't obtain a possible star caliber player for cheap because we still won't win next year or the year after this is gonna be a short discussion. You're right. I'm sure hockey people don't go solely on translation factors. That would be pretty stupid, which is why I never suggested such a thing. I also agree there are probably plenty of players with favorable numbers who disappointed. I disagree though that "we know he can off and 25-30 pts". Conservative estimates have him at 50 pts and liberal ones have him at 80 pts. You're fiendish love of tanking, the draft, and prospects in general is well documented, you don't need to remind me. Lemme ask you this, would you give up our 2nd rounder next year for Dzingel straight up? And a 19 year old may never make your roster. Berggren put up 3 pts in a foreign league last year, why are you so high on him? Gusev is coming here as a 27 year old kid and is the MOST dominate player in the same league that Panarin came to us from. Vegas doesn't have room to sign him. I would trade McIsaac for Gusev in a heartbeat. I never claimed Gusev would even get us into the playoffs next year. I simply want to add a potentially superstar player to the roster for cheap. Gusev for Berggren is cheap. Kerfoot is a young 40 pt centermen and Ceci is a young RH D who's playing good minutes. I dunno much about either but I'll take your word on it I guess. Get em

Alright he's my super secret idea/plan, please tell me if it's completely idiotic: Step 1: Offersheet Kerfoot for $4,050,000 x 5. If they let him go you only have to give up a 2nd. Either way proceed with step 2. Step 2: You spin right around and offer sheet Ceci for $4,050,000 x 5. If they let him go you only have to give up a 2nd. If they give up these players you lose two 2nds but you get two very good young players and you managed to steal the main component from the Zaitsev trade, and half the component of the Kadri trade. If they match you just saddled them with $8.1 in salary and now they only have like 3-4 mil to sign Marner. Either way you're forcing Dubas's hand and making him act repeatedly in a short time frame to either keep matching/trading etc when he should be focusing on Marner and other things. IDK f*** the Leafs

Wasn't Gusev a very highly ranked 1st rounder at one point? He only went in the 7th to Tampa because he said he didn't wanna play in the NHL. Gusev is currently projected to be a point per game player in the NHL by the translation factor for the KHL (0.804). Berggen is currently projected to be a 15 pt player in the NHL by the the translation factor for the SHL (0.596). Berggren is a kid who still has a lot of developing to do. He might become a 60+ pt player, a 30 pt player, a 15 pt player, or he might not make the NHL at all. Gusev is a fully developed player who nearly broke the KHL scoring record this year (missed by 3 pts). This shouldn't be an argument at all IMO. I'm taking Gusev over Berggren without hesitation and twice on Sunday. Shipachyov is a good indicator of what can go wrong with Gusev type player. He was promised a spot on their NHL roster but was sent to the AHL after only 3 games. THREE GAMES. Really dumb decision by VGK IMO, but I also understand their POV. They were winning and everything was clicking except for Shipachyov. Had they not been winning I think they would have given him a lot more slack and time to settle into his NHL role. But they exhibited shockingly little patience, and Shipachyov felt lied to and unfairly treated so he returned immediately to Russia instead of reporting to the AHL. Personally I think Shipachyov needed more time to acclimate because he plays center. Panarin didn't have that level of responsibility hoisted immediately on him and was able to jump right in and play his game. Gusev also plays wing.

I match.

Why does Sean Avery look like an old lesbian now?

My philosophy is that the fans pay everyone's paycheck.....they bought tickets, they have the right to boo.

https://www.nhl.com/redwings/news/taking-flight-you-dont-know-jack/c-308165968