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Lucic is already on the decline, isn't he? I remember reading some stuff from Boston when he left that he wasn't very good. I think this is another case of us wanting the 5-year-ago version of a player.

So your argument for Tatar being a poor possession player is that "anyone who watched him last year can see how he ignored open linemates and tried to do everything else himself instead, leading to the other team getting the puck." Yes, anyone and everyone who watched Tatar's 2015-16 season 1) saw that he is a bad possession player because he totally gave the puck away all the time and 2) understands that one season in an NHLer's career (or parts of one season, or parts of parts of one season, or parts of parts of parts of one season, or some people's shared perspective on parts of parts of parts of one season...) is definitely the unequivocal measure of an NHLer's possession prowess. That's some rock-solid analysis, full of evidence and all that good convincing stuff. I'm sure it's not at all subjective or anecdotal or possibly even mistaken. The eye simply doesn't lie, especially when it's Your Eye doing the eyeing. Not that I hate the eye test. I just find it amusing that so many people think they need to resist stats like they're the Borg or something. If we're talking about a player's worth, the eye test isn't necessarily going to tell you as much as you'd probably like to think it will, unless you're paying damn close attention every night and and taking notes and keeping a record of at least some form of meaningful statistic (hopefully beyond the basic stats, because, otherwise, what's the point?) Of course, then it wouldn't be the eye test. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Who said anything about them finishing top 3? If you are talking NHL or conference, I dont think anyone has said that. If you are talking top 3 in the division which is what they have finished 2 straight years, that is not by any stretch a ridiculous prediction. Personally I will reserve any predictions or judgements until after the roster is figured out.

Hard pass on lucic. As far as physical forwards go, Ladd or Backes would be good if they'd sign around a 2-3 year deal.

Would rather us try to get Ladd over Lucic.

Lucic: 18g in 14-15, 20g in 15-16 Tatar: 29g in 14-15, 21g in 15-16 Nyquist: 27in 14-15, 17g in 15-16 Lucic played in the top 6 in Boston and L.A. Tat and Ny's numbers dipped on the 3rd line. Under no circumstance do I want Lucic. Also, he can't skate and wouldn't be able to keep up with Larkin

Same can be said about a lot of guys who played in Detroit

Craig Button just did his mock draft, McLeod goes a pick before us to the Wild and we get Jake Bean. I'm a tad biased, because I got to see him play this year, but I PRAY that Craig is right and we get Bean. Exactly what we need, offensive D, big, fast, good passer and no slouch in his own zone.

Put Lucic in the winged wheel and he's still a piece of s***

Did you say the same thing about Dino and Chelios?

Currently trying to put plans together for a trip to the Joe. Would be awesome if I could hit a Lions game as well.

He brings a physical element, but the term is not going to be reasonable. He's only going to get slower at this point, and he was noticeably slower than his linemates last year. He'll be looking for at least 5 years at $5 mil + per year. No way Holland throws the bank at this clown.

A slow piece of s***. But who cares, speed doesn't matter in hockey anyway.

Detroit is rumored to be interested in Lucic. As much as I think we need to get heavier and more difficult to play against, throwing a 6-year contract at Lucic would be an idiotic move. I just don't see Holland doing it. I don't see his production rising much, if at all, for the rest of his career. Let Edmonton or Vancouver make that mistake.

The thing is, even if the statistic isn't well defined or applied consistently, there's no reason to assume the player with fewer giveaways actually had more over the course of the season than the person who was actually listed with more. The only way that would happen is if stat-recorders around the league consistently missed giveaways by Tatar more often than they missed giveaways by other players on our team. Are you prepared to show how that happened? Look: Are the stats great? No. But you have nothing to back up your original argument that he's a "turnover machine" other than you feel that way. You're just hating on a player because - and you said this yourself - they didn't score as many goals this season as last season (which is true of just about everyone on the team, by the way) and that disappointed you. Tatar isn't loose with the puck by comparison to other players on this team. Criticize his goal-scoring, or his decision-making, but saying he's error-prone with the puck is still wrong. And you have yet to present any evidence to the alternative besides "It's obvious." What did somebody say earlier this month? Please calmly put the controller down and slowly step away from the Xbox. I'm honestly curious - how much do you anticipate Stamkos and Lucic getting paid, in this scenario?

Lets not call it common sense. Common sense isn't assuming the eyeball test, which has been widely and repeatedly proven to be one of the least reliable forms of evidence, is a more accurate means of measuring a parameter than another method, which you have no insight to how is even measured. That's rejecting data for intuition and/or emotion, which is the exact opposite of sensical. Incidentally that's the same issue that's plaguing the anti-vaccine movement. Its intuition and emotion based on preconceived notions you have with Tatar, or Helm, or Smith, or whomever else which you are relying on to make interpretations on otherwise quantifiable data, and when the data isn't congruent with your intuition, you reject the data, instead of modify your original hypothesis. If science was run like this our society never would have accepted the sun is the center of our solar system, or that infectious disease is a manifest of microorganisms. I have no issue with being skeptical of information presented to you, but when the purported alternative is supported exclusively by "because that's what I think" then there's a problem.

Thought this was relevant to the Tatar discussion. Some interesting Quotes from Blashill: http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2016/05/09/blashill-aware-red-wings-change-mix/84168604/ “I would like to have a much better feel for what our lines are going to be,” he said. “And part of that, and part of what we’ve talked about as a group, is constructing a roster where guys are excited about their roles. Guys that are third-line players are excited to be third-line players. Guys who are fourth-line players are excited to be that.“And you have the right guys getting the right minutes in the top six. “This year, we just had probably too many similar players that I don’t think we ever found the best combinations for.” Also, some light on Tatar and Helm's comments at the end of the year: “We had guys on the third line who wanted to be top-two line guys, and we had so many players in that third spot that we didn’t have enough excitement for the roles that everybody was in,” Blashill said. “I think if guys had a beef on ice time, for me, it would be Tatar and Nyquist more than anybody else,” Blashill said. I'm glad that he's fully aware that the line combos didn't work last year and that he seems like he's going to change the mix. Tatar and Nyquist should absolutely be separated and be used with playmakers (Z, Larkin, AA) to maximize their potential. He gave some interviews this past year and talked about his plan for Ny-Shea-Tat to be one of the best 3rd lines in the league, but it never worked and shouldn't have seen as much time together as they did. Tat-Shea-Jurco was the 'kid line that work, because it had different elements.

I guess if you keep saying this every season, at some point you will be right.

So you do just use the eyeball test. And besides that you readily admit that you don't understand how the league defines takeaway vs giveaway. Which means at the most fundamental level you are inequipped to say their data is inaccurate.

How are you quantifying which stats are accurate and which stats are not? Do you actually have a method that defines a particular statistic as well as a way to measure it, and have you put in the hours and combed through games and compared your data with official league data, including based on their means of measurement and definition? Or are you just eyeballing it.

I found other weekend games in October, November, December and April (last two games, EVER). I am unable to go this year, and I think the final games will just be too much, since everyone will want to go... I would most certainly go in with others on a box! Also, please excuse my newness and lack of picture. I am rather new to the intertubes and lazy... This will mark my third? time at the Joe. I have seen them at least once, each season for the past 8 season. Many New York, NJ, Boston, Buffalo and recently in Philly and Tampa. I think I will turn it into a game of goto every rink... Or at least have a reason to visit some cool cities!

Just when I think Gary Bettman couldn't possibly be any dumber.... He goes and does something like this, and totally [doesn't] redeem himself!!

Awesome, another city that will be filled with Red Wings fans at away games!

While we are putting teams in some of the hottest places in the US, why not try for Atlanta or Arizona while we're at it and see how hockey does in those kinds of markets. Oh wait..