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I think this off-season will go very far in defining Ken Holland as a GM. It will show whether his inactivity at the last 2 trade deadlines and last summer were smart move (saving cap and roster space for a big free agent push this summer) or if he lacks the ability or desire to make necessary changes to the makeup of his club in order to stay competitive. I've been pretty critical of Holland's moves (or more specifically, lack thereof) when it appears the Wings are stale and in need of a wakeup call. I feel he's hung on to some players for too long (Chelios, Maltby, Holmstrom, and now Bertuzzi) at the expense of critical NHL development time for some of the younger players, I think he lets prospects sit in Grand Rapids for too long--Brendan Smith should have been with the Wings for most, if not all, of last season and basically been Nick Lidstrom's shadow, playing with him in all situations (what better way to learn??), and I can't take him seriously when he says he expects his team to compete for the Stanley Cup every year, but there are no repercussions for players who woefully underperform when the team falls short (i.e., nobody "essential" gets traded away, which sends a message to all remaining players). I can't give credit to Holland (as GM) for the '97 or '98 Cups, as he was in the process of being handed that team just as they reached the top of the league. The '98 team was on a mission after the limo accident. The '02 Cup, he'll get credit, but he had Ilitch's open bank vault and fit the right pieces into place. The '08 Cup and '09 final, that's all him. 21 straight playoff appearances is very impressive. But the last 4 Cup champs were teams that missed the playoffs in the first season after the lockout, and 3 of the 4 Conference finalists this year missed the playoffs that season. Those teams have had better chances to restock their systems with higher draft picks. In my opinion, Holland cannot afford to miss out on the best players available, whether it's through free agency or trade. Time for change, time for improvement.

I don't know about make it or break it, but I think this is the biggest test of his career as GM.

Right or wrong, success is measured by lots of people in Cups. If Holland gets one of Parise or Suter and we get a Cup, he will be hailed as a genius for getting the right one. If we don't get a Cup, many will be second guessing him and saying he got the wrong one. If both go for insanely high prices and he just failed to overpay, some will say it was a shrewd move and others will decry him for not trying hard enough. These are not all people, of course, but it seems like a lot of people have a "what have you done for me lately?" mentality. Look at Rafalski. He was hailed, then scorned, then respected in retrospect. I don't think that the moves Holland makes this summer will seal his legacy, but he has a good opportunity to add pieces we need to get another Cup or two. If he does well, and we get at least one Cup, people will use this summer to make a case for his greatness, but I wouldn't say that when we look back it will difinitively make or break him. EDIT: Unless he gets Parise, Suter, and trades everyone we don't like for someone a jillion times better and signs them cheap. Then it will make him the greatest, but I don't see that realistically happening. Just had to add it for completeness of thought. EDIT 2: Blast! I miss spellcheck!

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Some very insightful comments in here... I think that Holland's "legacy" was already cemented by the '08 Cup. To me, that Cup was so essential in shaking the label that the Red Wings were the Yankees of the NHL. To replace a generation of players like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny, etc. without the aid of high draft picks or limitless spending proved that there was more to the Wings than just money. I get a little annoyed when people refer to any move that doesn't result in a Cup as a failure. Like Hossa in '09. Hossa carried the team through an inconsistent regular season, then played through a significant injury in the playoffs, while Datsyuk did the same, but only scored 1 goal in 16 games (IIRC). The fact is that Cup winning teams like PIT, CHI, and LA could NOT have been built if those teams drafted from the position the Wings have from the early 90's to the present. Holland's ability to find and replace talent against those odds may not last forever, but don't ever forget that it worked for a damn long time.

Well, if he lands Suter and Parise and we win the Cup, I think it will cement his legacy as a HoF GM. If he lands neither, and we miss the playoffs or exit early it will tarnish his image in the short term (unfairly), but long term he will still be remembered as one of the best. Remember, he was also assistant GM for 3 years, and director of amatuer scouting for 7 before that. He played a significant role in building the team he "inherited". He's also made some big moves that people consider "failures" just because they didn't result in a Cup. Hossa, Hatcher, Clark/Samuelsson/Ranford, Cujo, Lang... He's also facing an uphill battle. We may need some big signing or trade, but that doesn't make doing it any easier. There's one real impact defenseman who might be available, and about 20 teams with the desire and ability to make a good offer for him. We have some assets to trade, but that doesn't mean any teams with the players we want will make those players available or be interested in what we can offer. Fact is, if Red Wings fans judged other teams or GMs by the same standard Kenny has to live up to, they'd all be considered abject failures. We just lost the best defenseman of our generation, plus Stu, Rafi last year. Our stars are in their 30s. We haven't had any high draft picks during his tenure. We've dealt with the loss of stars and key roleplayers, like Konstantinov, Hasek, Yzerman, Hull, Fedorov, Robitaille, Shanahan, Chelios, Draper, Maltby, Osgood, Fischer, and more without needing to rebuild. And we are still talking about making moves to keep us a Cup contender rather than about rebuilding. That says alot more about Kenny than anything that might happen July 1st or afterward. But if we don't make any big moves, and Kenny says, like last summer or the deadline, "We wanted to make some moves, but could find one that fit. But we like our team." everyone will just jump on the "we like our team" bit. As if all the best FAs offered to play here for free and every other GM offered to trade us their best players for our worst and Kenny turned them down. It's like half this board thinks the rest of the league has to get Kenny's permission before they can do anything, and the only reason we haven't done more already is because we didn't want to.

1. Hot BBQ 2. Wild 3. Spicy Garlic 4. Asian Zing 5. Hot Of the current Red Wings though, a combination of Hank, Pavs, Kronner, Helm, & Howie.

Except he loves to take dumb penalties and his defensive game is still pretty rough.

I first noticed White when he played against us in San Jose and thought he was a great little player. When we poicked him up I was so happy, I think White has been a fantastic addition. Low cost, high energy, gives his all, safe and for a small guy he plays bigger then some of our big guys... yes I'm looking at you Ericsson "The friendly giant". Trading White would be a dumb and pointless move imo.

Also keep in mind he has been forced to play with Kindl, Commodore, Lebda... Ian white, Kronwall and Stuart would probably look worse playing with these scrubs

The thing is guys... that the rest of the team (Pittsburgh) suffers for the next 10-15 years. As we have begun to see over the past few years, cup-winners are well-balanced. Even if Pits signs both to long-term deals, that means their bottom six and bottom defence will be 500k cap-hit newbies. Balanced teams will continue to win I believe, so it just doesn't make sense if I'm Parise and Suter. They can only play the top two lines so much. With 14 mil in space, Pitts literally has zero cash for re-ups of current players like Letang (who is clearly worth more than what he's being paid now) and has zero cash for elite grinders (like our 2mil a year Helm signing). The only way I see them getting both is if they dump Martin somehow. Otherwise I see this purely as a pitch to either Parise or Suter and not both. I honestly don't believe Shero is that greedy and stupid to go after both. P.S. does it factor in at all that Pittsburgh's team of kids is exactly that? KIDS? We all saw how childish and ridiculous they looked in the first round against equally childish Philly. That stains their reputation. The wings are known as a CLASS ACT organization regardless of how many years are between Datsyuk and Crosby. Parise and Suter seem like the type of guys who want class, not a talented circus.

For the same money most players would chose to go to Pittsburgh over Detroit, Pittsburgh is younger and they have Malkin and Crosby, the future doesn't look so good for Detroit.

Why would someone want to sign with the wild under any circumstance?

if we dont get a number one Dman, and a top 3 forward then hes lost his touch. oh and I want prust. Im getting my torch ready for mid july

If Holland can't make some serious stuff happen this offseason to put a good team on the ice come October, it'll likely be the start of a multi-year skid where we struggle to make the playoffs and/or exit early. If that happens after he also blatantly sat on his hands the last few offseasons likely because he didn't want to make moves for emotional reasons as opposed to hockey reasons, his legacy will be hurt, no doubt about it. Let's be honest, Scotty Bowman had more say than Holland in putting together the '97 and '98 Cups, in '02 we had the Yankees on ice in the non-cap era and Scotty Bowman influence, and then in 2008, we still had the Scotty Bowman influence and many of the original guys that Scotty Bowman helped bring along. And I can't say that it's not interesting that we haven't done as well in the offseason at signings or during the season with trades since Bowman left the organization. Maybe he had nothing much to do with it at that point, but it's none the less intriguing to me. He goes to Chicago the following season, they sign Hossa long-term (which Holland should've and could've done) and they win the Cup in 2010. (Yes, I know the Chicago argument is a stretch...) But in any event, Holland is clearly setting up his own legacy at this point and has been since the shadow of Scotty Bowman left for good prior to the summer of 2009 I believe. That was a terrible offseason for us, much like every one since. We've not gotten past the 2nd round since then either. We lost in the 1st round last season! The signing of Franzen long-term (especially considering the Hossa angle) is looking more and more questionable. He has to basically replace the core of our defense, no longer building around one of the greatest players in history, but around Kronwall, who's a good to great player at times no doubt, but he's no Lidstrom. Howard had a great year last year up until injuries (and likely made the skaters look a lot better than they were for much of the season) and he never fully got back to form, but if he struggles this year (you never know with goalies...) coming off that funk hanging around all summer, he's suddenly got a starting goalie issue on his hands too. Bottom line, he's got a lot to prove this summer, and if he fails to put a competitive team on the ice, we're likely going to be stuck in a rut for awhile. Dats and Z aren't getting any younger either and our young forwards aren't goal scorers. Given the huge likelihood for struggles on D, the mild uncertainty surrounding a younger goalie who still hasn't fully proven himself and an offense that struggled to score goals when it counts most last year, Holland is going to need a miracle to come out looking clean. And if the legend is worth it's while, maybe he'll pull one out of his pocket. But at this point, it's likely that anything less than signing Suter and Parise is going to be viewed as a failure, because you need both of them to come close to making up for losing a guy like Lidstrom at both ends, and Lids only played D! And even if he secures them both, he still needs another 2/3 defensemen and a solid backup goalie with more NHL experience so Jimmy can get some breaks and stay healthy and positive. I'm hoping for the best, but I wouldn't be shocked if this was an ugly offseason. I also wouldn't be shocked if Ken Holland wasn't the Wings GM in 1-2 years. If he blows it and we don't make the playoffs, I could see him being done. If it happens again the year after, he better be fired. It's time for Holland to prove he can do more than be the first guy to sign superstars to long-term creative contracts that circumvent the cap. We'll know a lot more by next Monday.

I don't know if its a good idea to be committing yourself to two more big long term deals and pressing right up against the cap when Crosby and Malkin's contracts are going to need extensions over the next couple years, not to mention they have a bunch of guys unsigned after next year.

Guys, we have to be realistic here. Kenny has a very hard job to do and it takes alot of patience, knowledge and due dilgence to improve this hockey team. All 29 other teams are trying to improve themselves so Kenny has alot of competition. Here is a roster I think is very realistic for next season. One which I feel Kenny can achieve if things go his way this summer... CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER My Custom Lineup FORWARDS Ilya Kovalchuk ($6.667m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / Alex Ovechkin ($9.538m) Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) Steven Stamkos ($7.500m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Corey Perry ($5.325m) Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Anze Kopitar ($6.800m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / DEFENSEMEN Shea Weber ($8.000m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m) Zdeno Chara ($6.917m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m) Erik Karlsson ($6.500m) / Drew Doughty ($7.000m) Keith Yandle ($5.250m) / GOALTENDERS Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) Jonathan Quick ($1.800m) ------ CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter) (these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion) SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $149,605,128; BONUSES: $0 CAP SPACE (23-man roster):- $79,305,128 Come on Kenny, get er done!

I am going with my fantasy roster until they are not available anymore: FORWARDS Zach Parise ($8.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m) Damien Brunner ($1.000m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.250m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Jeremy Welsh ($1.100m) / DEFENSEMEN Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($8.000m) Ian White ($2.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Justin Schultz ($1.100m) Danny DeKeyser ($0.825m) / GOALTENDERS Jimmy Howard ($2.250m) Al Montoya ($1.000m) ------ SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $67,070,833; BONUSES: $37,500 CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $3,229,167 There are always back-up plans....obvious one Semin in for Parise or if Ryan doesn't find his way here in a trade. Parise AND Semin would be nice...but then again, if Ryan isn't traded for, then I will have to put Franzen back in...like I said, this is my roster until they are not available anymore... EDIT: I know Dekeyser is going back to Western this fall, but I don't like Kindl in there, so I put Danny in.

call me crazy but I wouldn't be too disappointed if we let both of them walk. I don't see what Abdelkader brings to this team that is all that important.we'll probably resign Quincey due to already losing Lidstrom and Start.

Just an FYI, Justin becomes a UFA in about 10 mins...I really hope Holland does go hard after him....

Great job on our scouting team to unearth skill and talent from other sources. Everyone knows that we were known for finding talent in Sweden by having a designated scout there. Now that Russia and Sweden have been tapped, let's find all the gems in Switzerland, Belarus, Africa, China, Australia, India ...

Frk is a Russian word that when translated actually means "low skater" I mean how ironic, amiright? OK I just made it up

I brought this up because people were saying a pairing of Schultz and Smith would be like Weber and Suter in 3 years... Which is ridiculous.. Last year Ericsson was more poised with the puck than Stuart and Kronwall and Ericsson has taken strides forward each year... If You people are expecting Smith to step in and play better than ericsson then you're ******* high. Ericsson is by far our most undervalued player on this team...

Your post starting with this has nothing to do with Justin Schultz. Comparing Big E to Smith seriously? It's funny all the people who rag on Smith and say you have said forgot what he did with us with limited minutes. But this isn't a Smith or Big E thread now is it? The Mods here should warn you...

I thought for sure this was a bluesadams thread. I feel like we have so manyyyyy of these threads and they ALL are the pretty much the same thing. Maybe swapping a player or two. Anyways I don't know about Semin, he will want to much and is known for being lazy. It would be intriguing to see him play with Datsyuk but not sure if that outweighs his known laziness.