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First things first: I have to say, never once did I think that when I started this site back in September of 1996 that it would still be going strong 20 years later. It's truly unbelievable and I'm so thankful that thousands of you have made these forums your home and community of friends over all of these years. 20 Years. Wow... hard to believe that number! Welcome to version 4.0 of the LetsGoWings.com Forums! This is the largest update to the forums since v3.0 was launched back in 2010, and by far the most extensive. The site now features a completely responsive design and should run far faster than the previous rendition and includes many bells and whistles that weren't available on the previous version. Unfortunately it took a bit longer for this upgrade to happen (and, truth be told, the server is still running background processes to update an absolutely massive database), but I hope you feel it was worth the wait! As with any upgrade of this magnitude there's going to be some tinkering going on (some things may look odd or out of place). Don't fret! There'll be some periodic updates as the last wrinkles are ironed out with this release. Feel free to PM me through the forums here if you find a bug, have a problem, etc.. Thank you and LGRW!

Kindl was moved at the deadline to a team that really needed a defenseman. Apples and oranges. And do you REALLY believe that Holland is lying, and that he didn't try to trade them? I've been as anti-Holland as anyone, I can't believe that. m The fact is Pulk and Frk have limited upside and virtually no value, but because they were Red Wings prospects, fans view them as better than similar players in other organizations. It's like a mom with an ugly baby who doesn't realize it's an ugly baby, because it's HER baby.

Exactly. People act like this is the end of the world. This is such a small issue when compared to the big picture of building a new core. How Larkin, Mantha, AA, Mrazek and even DD progress is the most important thing for the team right now. Once those guys are established NHLers the team will have way more options then they have in a very long time

Taking a step back to cool off and look at this situation for a second, none of these players we've lost through waivers here recently have gone on to be, or ever were projected to be all stars. Pulkkinen had something this team sorely lacked (right hand, booming shot), but never really was given the opportunity to excel at this level. Lets be thankful we're not doing a Boston and losing a guy who is in arguably one of the top 10 fowards in the league today.... I think what bothers me truly is the fact that its bad management and poor decisions which is resulting in us losing players like this. It's not the quality of players, it's more the way we're losing them. For me, (and I'd like to think this is why a lot of anger and frustration is coming toward KH at the moment) its the simple fact that all of these situations were/are avoidable. In trying to find reasoning behind it all, I think KH's hands are sort of tied by ownership here, and maybe we really need to question what's going on behind the scenes instead of just venting at KH for his inability to do things. Look at it this way. Ownership has probably said the biggest thing they care about is simply having a winning team and making the playoffs, regardless. If we look at the Tigers (who had a great season thanks to how Dombrowski traded all the pending free agents 2 years ago for excellent prospects who were a core part of the team's success this past season), DD was fired for his trade deadline day sale. You have to think that if KH doesn't keep signing 'veteran plugs' and frees up roster spots for guys like Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA, Sproul and Ouellet to actually play every night and establish their game at the NHL level, it could blow up in his face if the kids don't produce, the Wings miss the playoffs and KH loses his job. The same goes for a trade. Say we trade Nyquist and a couple prospects/picks for Trouba, and he struggles? We lose offense and get worse. Not a risk he's willing to take. And on the surface, it's incredibly short sighted. Sure, a guy like Vanek has a proven track record and looks like he plays better right now than say AA or Mantha. But in 2 years time? Given the ice time, we all know that both Mantha and AA would be better players, and the organisation would have 2 genuine, young top 9/6 forwards entering their primes HAVING 2 years + of NHL experience instead of being 24/25 and trying to figure out how to thrive in the NHL. And it really pisses me off when I hear all these quotes from Blashill and management saying the young guys have to knock someone off the roster or be better than everyone else just to get a job. And that's fine if you're actually going to give them the chance to learn and play at the NHL level. But there isn't actually the opportunity for any of these kids to actually earn it. (the exception was Larkin, but he is for our organisation a generational player) AA getting 6 minutes a night doesn't cut the mustard either. Look at the quotes from Fletcher after the Wild claimed Pulkkinen: "He's played a top-six role at every level," said Wild general manager Chuck Fletcher. "It remains to be seen whether he can do it at the NHL level, but that's the opportunity we'd like to give him, and we'd certainly like to see if he can do it." Pulkkinen has played 70 NHL games, and the Wild are giving him the chance to excel and prove what he can do. Where is this philosophy from the Wings? They'd rather have one of Minny's washed up cast offs (Vanek) in hope he can rediscover his magic from 10 years ago when he was lighting it up in Buffalo as a young 20 something player. And if he scores 20, then great. But this is a player who is trending downwards, and we can all objectively see is just holding up a roster spot for Mantha or AA to learn and grow their games at the NHL level. And fundamentally, that is the problem plaguing the Wings right now. KH is scared of giving young guys the opportunity because he knows they'll experience growing pains which = losing which = missing the playoffs which = KH losing his job. And in the short term, that means the team won't be as successful. But in the long term it would mean we'd potentially be better. But instead, he goes out and signs over the hill veterans (Ott, Vanek) whom he knows will at least play at a respectable level, just enough for us to make the playoffs = KH keeps his job. And as a result, it stunts the growth of the organisation because guys who are on the cusp of the NHL (Seriously, how many years have we been talking about Sproul and Ouellette?) don't get the chance to grow their game and we lose them to waivers.....

Or we could've demoted Ott and Miller. Or we could've not signed Ott and not re-signed Miller in the first place. Like I've said, I don't feel we've lost huge building blocks in Frk and Pulkkinen; in the long run, I don't think we're really going to miss them. My problem lies with the way Ken Holland is doing business. For what it's worth, though, I think the Wings -- under Holland -- have assembled a group of very promising young forwards over the past few years. Larkin, Athanasiou, Mantha, Svechnikov, Bertuzzi, Sadowy...that's nothing to sneeze at. But that's one of the exceedingly few things I can say, "Good on Ken Holland," about.

I'm excited to have Ott and watch him annoy the hell out of people. You want to fight about it you can call me at 1-800-PRO-FLOWERS

And so it begins, a lot of teams will regret passing on this guy.

The scouts saw weaknesses in him during draft maybe but then he came into the AHL and became the best goal scorer in that league. His value definitely went up while he was in the NHL. Eventually he comes into the NHL and does okay. Babcock doesn't really utilize him. We knew he wasn't likely going to be a top player here, at least not with our coaching system. It would have been better to move him right then and there in 2015, at the very least for a pick, rather than just hanging on... hanging on... hanging on.... and then losing him on waivers. It doesn't take a genius to be preemptive about the situation. Holland isn't an idiot. He just has a loaded/log jammed roster that he's having trouble distributing. I don't think Pulkinnen is in the same boat as Nestrasil, Ferraro, Janmak etc. Pulk was the best goal scorer in the AHL, that's actually a good incentive for any sort of trade. But when you come up to the NHL and get buried on the scratch list consistently, then prove yourself to be injury prone, that no longer bodes well for your resume. So here we are today. Far as the stats. 6g, 11p in 23 games and excellent advanced stats with sheltered minutes. I mean the advanced stats were so good that a lot of his numbers were superior to everyone on the roster. Except that he really wasn't superior when it came down to it. I've already said ad nauseam that advanced stats and numbers aren't the end all be all. Not without the context of the situation Why? Because Pulkkinen. Pulkkinen's advanced stats we're a classic example of an outlier. As someone who is as much into advanced stats as you, you should clearly see his numbers weren't making much sense when compared to other top players. If I remember correctly, a lot of his advanced stats we're far superior to Datsyuk. And we both know he's not better than Datsyuk.

Great ideas, guys, but you're limited to 31 characters, which they don't tell you until you get into the order screen. I requested the home opener, which I will be attending, and I will try to get a pic of it. Here's the best I could do: Transaction Date: 10/11/16 Wish Message Thanx Steve MMS Shoen Love, LGW Type of wish Other Date of Game 10/17/2016 Amount: $71.91

Should have traded Pulk when Babcock was scratching him. Instead they beat a dead horse and allowed his value to decrease further. Obviously you're not going to get traded after almost two years of being a waste of space. And yes I like Holland. But no excuses here. We could have definitely gotten some good return if we had traded him earlier on. How many people predicted he wouldn't be able to translate his AHL "one trick pony" game into the NHL? A lot. This is definitely not hindsight at all. This was coming and we all knew it was, ESPECIALLY because of the Red Wings defensive coaching system. He was never a good fit for us since day 1. As far as trade value, the difference in 2015 year he was known as the Brett Hull of AHL. This past year, he was known as the 14th forward. The latter doesn't sound very appealing in a trade deal. Now Frk is another story, can't really blame Holland for that one.

We gotta be careful with exactly what these advanced stats are measuring. Team shot attempt differential is a loose association with possession at best, and its skewed by a lot of things. For example, Pulkkinen had a higher percentage of offensive zone starts than any other forward save for Mantha and Cole, who combined played less than half the games Pullkinen did in that time. He also had very few defensive zone starts in his time with Detroit. Its much easier for your team to shoot more than your opponent when coach is putting you out there 25 feet from the opponent's net, and 175 feet from your own. He was also shooting the puck literally any chance he could, whether it was a legitimate scoring opportunity or some ill-advised, low-percentage shot from the boards with no net support. I wouldn't call Pulkkinen a possession player at all. In fact he probably raised my blood pressure more than anyone else on the team the last two years because more opportunities seemed to die off his stick than anyone else on the team, and besides for the fact that he was a one-trick pony, I suspect his tendency to end offensive zone opportunity was another reason why he was waived. But yes I will admit, for the situations he was put on the ice, and the teammates he was put on the ice with, and the opposition he was played against, and the specific instructions he was given to shoot the puck whenever physically possible, when he was on the ice he and his line tended to attempt shots more than the opposition, for whatever that's worth.

I'm thinking Ouellette and Sproul will be alternating games to start the season. I've got no clue what Holland does when Kronwall returns. It's time for a bold move

Sorry for the late answer (very busy time atm), nope I don't follow Baseball I tried but for whatever reason there are too many minutes were absolutely nothing happens. As far as I'm concerned Mr. I owns the NBA, NFL and MLB teams from Detroit too right? That's exactly my concern I wish he would focus on making the Red Wings great again, the MLB doesn't have a salary cap so it should be easier to make that team a strong contender. The problem for me is, that Holland doesn't seem to have a clear direction in mind. If you want to go for it, go for it fine...but if not don't just be a middle of the pack team be bad and build something that can sustain itself for a long period of time. My fear is that the Wings might become the Canucks of the east...I know a lot of you don't share that opinion but looking at the rosters it's pretty close...Wings have 1 (in words one) highend talent (Larkin), Canucks have Horvat...Wings have one bonafide top pairing guy (Dekeyser), Canucks have Tanev...other than that both teams are pretty thin prospectwise. I fully agree with your assessment, this would have been a great year to let AA and Mantha learn the ropes of the NHL game, As far as Winnipeg I have a feeling at least one team will meet their asking price, Cheveldayoff knows Trouba is worth it and sadly most do all the other GMs in the league. A young bonafide top 4 defenseman (with number 1 upside), good size and in his prime that's going to cost a lot. Anywaay I don't understand Minnesotta taking Pulkinnen, their team is overall already to small and other than his shot he doesn't add much to their lineup, maybe Fletsher sees something in him.

True, it is early. I was really high on Chychrun and was hoping we'd pick him. Personally, I think he's going to be really good. I'll be paying close attention to Cholowski though since he'll be playing about an hour away.

I feel like I want to change my av back to Betty White holding a wiener but I feel guilty changing it

Entertaining bit of histrionics there. But in regards to the youth, I think there's something people are over-looking. We waived Pulk and Frk in order to keep the waiver-exempt AA. To me, that means that at least Holland thinks AA should be playing, which would almost certainly mean Ott or Miller sitting. Who knows if Blash feels the same way, but I'd assume so. Probably more of a positive than if we'd demoted AA and stuck Pulk in the pressbox. Also, you don't "build" with secondary players (or worse). We are building on the backs of Larkin, and Mrazek, and (for lack of a better option atm) Dekeyser, maybe AA. Hopefully in the near future we'll find at least a couple more to join that foundation. For secondary and depth players, it isn't that important where they come from. Old, young, drafted, UFA. Whatever. With Tatar, Nyquist, Abby, etc. we might even say our secondary players are already built as well as can be expected. The only skilled winger that's played significantly with Glendening was Jurco. And that was because they had no other place to put him. Also, Abby and Sheahan are probably better scorers right now than what Mantha could do. Maybe even Helm. I think very highly of AA (and Pulk for what it's worth now), but I'm not sure they'd be better scorers either. Yeah, it's interesting. Still too early to judge, and shouldn't be judged in hindsight anyway, but given how things have gone since that deal we might have been better off passing.

How about: Thank you Steve "MMS" Shoen for your contribution. They don't have to know we're thanking him for life-time achievement rather than a specific contribution to the site. I will be sure to let Mary know what we decide. It will mean the world to her.

Kenny can't hear you. He's got his Stanley Cup rings plugged into his ears.

With the Las Vegas expansion draft coming, the value of the prospects who are not NHL ready in 1, max 2 years has probably fallen through the floor. This may be one of the reasons they were waiv ed and not traded

Kronwall isn't expected to be out long. Would've saved him a few days at best. Regardless, it's obvious the team didn't see a role for Pulk here, so there's no reason to keep him. Sure, maybe we could have gotten a low pick, but that's hardly worth getting upset over. We have never had a problem getting good players for the middle and bottom of the roster. Even last year when our offense sucked our scoring depth was well above average. I am probably the biggest Pulk supporter here, but I don't think having him in the pressbox or on the 4th-line would have made any difference. It's been said ad nauseam, but our problems are at the top of the roster. It's extremely unlikely that Pulk (or Frk) would have helped that. AA might though, so we should probably be happy that he's on the team (at least until Jurco is healthy).

Yeah, def not good to lose our higher picks/top prospects for nothing, especially as a team who's game plan is building through draft and development. I mean, hindsight it's always easier to say management should have done this instead, but I think with how often we are investing in our top picks and then we don't do anything beneficial with our investments I think looking harder into trading some of our "promising" prospects for established NHLers is something Holland and co should start considering a little more in the future. Sure we might trade away a future star, but the odds are probably at least a bit higher that we are trading away a fringe NHLer, at least based on the recent waiver claim history. Having said that, I am glad that space was made for AA. He is clearly an NHL player and one the Wings could definitely use this year.

blash said pulk was waived so one of mantha or AA could start with the wings.. mantha has been reassigned to GR, so looks like AA starts the season on the roster.

Right here... what did he do wrong? Pulkkinen is awful

As long as Illitch is the owner of this team, this is not going to happen. I'm not sure if you follow baseball Frank, but last year at the trade deadline the Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski wanted to sell as the Tigers were not going to make the playoffs. Long story short, word is that Illitch was so pissed at this, it led to DD's ousting as GM. I believe Holland has 2 mandates from ownership...1) Make the Playoffs, 2) Build a winner. It is very hard to to do both at the same time. With that being said, I am not for tanking. I think many teams try this and fail miserably creating a losing culture for a long long long time. However, I do think there are some moves that we make that do hurt long term. I personally wish we didnt sign Vanek and played Mantha top 6 or top 9, I wish we didnt sign Ott, put Sheahan on 4th line and played AA on the third line, I would bench E for XO, and I would rotate Sproul into the lineup somehow. I didnt love the Nielson signing, but I dont hate it as it gives Larkin some time to mature into the role of 1C. I agree that we do need to find a top caliber d-man. Hopefully other teams balk at Winnipeg's demands and we somehow pull-off a trade for Trouba.

Welcome to version 4.0 of the LetsGoWings.com Forums! This is the largest update to the forums since v3.0 was launched back in 2010, and by far the most extensive. The site now features a completely responsive design and should run far faster than the previous rendition and includes many bells and whistles that weren't available on the previous version. Unfortunately it took a bit longer for this upgrade to happen, but I hope you feel it was worth the wait! As with any upgrade of this magnitude there's going to be some tinkering going on (some things may look odd or out of place). Don't fret! There'll be some periodic updates as the last wrinkles are ironed out with this release. Feel free to PM me through the forums here if you find a bug, have a problem, etc.. Thank you and LGRW!